Another "Talk Group" bites the dust!!

[Dale Cochoy]

Yep!
I think it's time Dale moves on again to lurk or completely drop from another group.
Just look at all the Junk that has been posted the last two days.Just pure crap!
Crap threads started to cause trouble and responses to already existing threads to taunt others.
Folks, the old saying about "if you don't like it just change the channel" just doesn't fly, especially when half the channels are junk. You gotta turn it off!

IMO, This talk group has become what BT did before one person was thrown off , one died and a few others moved on..
It's gotten slightly better since then, but not much.
A mess of one-upmanship by lots of guys who think they are just Oh so smart!A rude and snotty banter amongst a bunch of people who just can't seem to SHUT UP because they are soooo smart.
I'm tired of reading the argueing between Chris, Al, Will and a half dozen others who just cannot live day to day without a bit of one-upmanship.
No one seems to understand why seasoned, experienced folks leave or occasionaly lurk anymore. Why bother posting. People are rude to them and others and have no respect for any background, experience or talent. The newsgroups soon are monopolized by the newbies who are now the masters of a group of newbies!
I see most threads don't have much of a read count, and I figure the high counts on the crap threads are from all the participants checking in 10 times a day to toss out their newest jab!
I keep thinking of a comment Ron Martin made to someone once about sitting behind a computer keyboard and saying things that in person might get you knocked on your ass! Well, this site has come to that point amongst several practitioners.
Some people just can't let it go!
I met Will for the first time a month or so ago. He was polite to me and spoke with respect. Although I didn't have any product he was interested in he still was respectful. And, he seemed to have a lot of respect from his club-mates. Will, I made a joke when I was leaving using your signature to make my point, I hope it was understood. Please Will, follow your own advice ...."What does the moon care if a dog howls at it". If you don't fight..no one will fight with you. Does ANYONE here figure they are going to win a computer based "I'm smarter than you" contest??
Yes, this talk group has gone the way of BT. I'm suprised it hasn't spread over into IBC yet.I wonder why not? Hmmmm?? Could it be that because that is the group where it wouldn't be put up with by all the experienced guys who either don't go to the others anymore or just lurk with rarely any input.?? I wonder?

I've read several times how newbies loved this group. Well newbies, it's tough to learn true art in bonsai and techniques and styling from other newbies who don't know. But, that seems to be the trend in the groups now.
So fight on dudes! Lets see who is smartest!
Regards,
Dale

 

[irene_b]

Amen!
I believe I will either just lurk or leave.
To hard to float this ship way too much bile.
Mom

 

[Chris Johnston]

Yep!
I think it's time Dale moves on again to lurk or completely drop from another group.
Just look at all the Junk that has been posted the last two days.Just pure crap!
Crap threads started to cause trouble and responses to already existing threads to taunt others.
Folks, the old saying about "if you don't like it just change the channel" just doesn't fly, especially when half the channels are junk. You gotta turn it off!

IMO, This talk group has become what BT did before one person was thrown off , one died and a few others moved on..
It's gotten slightly better since then, but not much.
A mess of one-upmanship by lots of guys who think they are just Oh so smart!A rude and snotty banter amongst a bunch of people who just can't seem to SHUT UP because they are soooo smart.
I'm tired of reading the argueing between Chris, Al, Will and a half dozen others who just cannot live day to day without a bit of one-upmanship.
No one seems to understand why seasoned, experienced folks leave or occasionaly lurk anymore. Why bother posting. People are rude to them and others and have no respect for any background, experience or talent. The newsgroups soon are monopolized by the newbies who are now the masters of a group of newbies!
I see most threads don't have much of a read count, and I figure the high counts on the crap threads are from all the participants checking in 10 times a day to toss out their newest jab!
I keep thinking of a comment Ron Martin made to someone once about sitting behind a computer keyboard and saying things that in person might get you knocked on your ass! Well, this site has come to that point amongst several practitioners.
Some people just can't let it go!
I met Will for the first time a month or so ago. He was polite to me and spoke with respect. Although I didn't have any product he was interested in he still was respectful. And, he seemed to have a lot of respect from his club-mates. Will, I made a joke when I was leaving using your signature to make my point, I hope it was understood. Please Will, follow your own advice ...."What does the moon care if a dog howls at it". If you don't fight..no one will fight with you. Does ANYONE here figure they are going to win a computer based "I'm smarter than you" contest??
Yes, this talk group has gone the way of BT. I'm suprised it hasn't spread over into IBC yet.I wonder why not? Hmmmm?? Could it be that because that is the group where it wouldn't be put up with by all the experienced guys who either don't go to the others anymore or just lurk with rarely any input.?? I wonder?

I've read several times how newbies loved this group. Well newbies, it's tough to learn true art in bonsai and techniques and styling from other newbies who don't know. But, that seems to be the trend in the groups now.
So fight on dudes! Lets see who is smartest!
Regards,
Dale

Dale, I am sorry you put me in this group again. I have done my level best to even the playing field all around. Pretty is as pretty does, and fair is fair. I have tried to engage all in productive threads and discussion. When I have been the recipient of rudeness, I have called it out. That's it.

I have been completely disappointed in the way things have gone the last two days. I have been working for two weeks to bring a higher level of discourse here. And you may be right.

This place may need to see the dust from our feet.

 

[Anonymous User]

I met Will for the first time a month or so ago. He was polite to me and spoke with respect. Although I didn't have any product he was interested in he still was respectful. And, he seemed to have a lot of respect from his club-mates. Will, I made a joke when I was leaving using your signature to make my point, I hope it was understood. Please Will, follow your own advice ...."What does the moon care if a dog howls at it". If you don't fight..no one will fight with you.

Thanks Dale, I enjoyed meeting you, I wish that more time would have been available for conversation, as I found the humor and discourse entertaining and educational. And you're right, I need to not respond and let the dogs howl.

I'm suprised it hasn't spread over into IBC yet.I wonder why not? Hmmmm?? Could it be that because that is the group where it wouldn't be put up with by all the experienced guys who either don't go to the others anymore or just lurk with rarely any input.?? I wonder?

This does not happen at AoB or KoB either and you're right, it does not happen because it would not be tolerated, the first such post is dealt with and that sets an example and a environment that discourages any others.


For my part, I apologize. No excuses, no passing the buck, I was involved and no matter how, am am just as guilty as the others. And you're right, I need to not respond and just let the dogs howl.




Will

 

[Brent]

I think the problem here is that we lost B-nut somewhere along the way. I'm not casting aspersions, I am grateful that he made a valiant effort to create a meaningful forum. But early on, he posted many things that kept us focused, and took an active role in putting out the fires. Of late, I can't believe he is even reading the posts. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't believe that he thinks that any of this is productive. I posted similar concerns about Bonsaisite which is also undergoing an introspection. Unless the owner and moderators work together to solve these problems, then the lowest common denominator emerges: either the newbies take over, or the shit slingers prevail. This seems to be the problem at all the discussion sites (not AOB or KOB) right now except for the IBC where Jim Lewis runs it with an iron hand. And therein lies the solution.

Unless someone, a benign dictator who is willing to take charge, reading the posts a half dozen times a day, and instantly killing the offending posts without mercy, without this there is no hope of having a meaningful discussion group. I was hoping that B-nut was the guy, but apparently he isn't. I am about ready to turn in my card as well, but I will stick around awhile to see what happens. It doesn't have to be like this, but someone has to take charge.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

 

[mondayshift]

i too wish for a forum were ego's are left outside. as a beginner in bonsai (if that's even applicable to me) i just wanna read view point's about bonsai, not people bickering and arguing. if a point of view clashes between people, it's ok. it does not necessarily mean one person has to be wrong. and it's very sad when a person makes a place for people with similar interest to come together get ruined, because of varying opinions that lead to conflict, instead of leading to a new way of thinking or just seeing how some people process differ. i wanna learn from this forum, not take sides.

 

[Anonymous User]

I think it's time Dale moves on again to lurk or completely drop from another group.

I am about ready to turn in my card as well...

Not so fast.

This forum needs your experience, this and any successful forum needs to be led by people like yourselves who have the experience, the knowledge, the talent, and the results to prevent it from becoming just another beginner teaching beginner forum.

I am the lightning rod here, the same small group of BT'ers focus on me, as they did at Bchat not long ago. Strangely after I was banned, they left, mission accomplished I guess.

The solution here is easy, I'll leave. Take the lightning rod off the barn so to speak. By doing so, we can hope that these few individuals can move forward and focus on bonsai, improve this forum, and make it what it should be.

I have two great bonsai forums I currently am involved in, a national show, and a few other projects to occupy myself with, so the spare time will not go to waste.

Problem solved.

Take care, it's a shame it couldn't work out.



Will Heath

www.artofbonsai.org
www.knowledgeofbonsai.org

 

[Jon Chown]

Wow!!! Dale, that is an excellent post and pretty well tells it like it is. I quit BT because of the unrelenting attacks on Will and came here hoping for a better environment, but alas what it deteriorated to, is more or less defined in your statement.

I'm tired of reading the arguing between Chris, Al, Will and a half dozen others who just cannot live day to day without a bit of one-upmanship.

While I am fully aware that it takes two to tango, I was beginning to think that it was just an American thing to not forgive and forget. That is to say that I am sure that Will would be the first to admit that he has made some mistakes over the years – but hey! Who hasn’t? While I do not know Will personally so to speak, I can see just how much he contributes to the Bonsai Society in general – a lot more than the half dozen that you mentioned.

I must add here that being a sideline observer for many weeks, I have noted with pleasure the fact that Chris has made every attempt to abstain from this persecution.

I really believe that if Will can learn to switch on the Ignore button again or at the very least, learn to not howl at the moon. Bonsainut could be a useful addition to the bonsai community.

Thanks Dale for a wonderful post.

Jon

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

Honestly I think everyone can get along if they try...I know people hate it when post are controlled by moderators but maybe that is what we need right now is for someone to pull posts when they get bad or lock threads.... I would hate to have experienced people leave..I for one came here to learn for this site appeared to have alot better discussions with alot better material than all the others, not just a bunch of newbie stuff...All in the name of bonsai..

 

[Bill S]

I wasn't going to but,

I'm thinking that the "major players" did a pretty decent job of becoming what we all believe (at least from the posts where behavior was discussed), is at least civil up to the last couple of daysthen I log in today 172 new posts since about 5:30 yesterday. As I go thru the nasty grahms, one of the things I see is a bunch of tag alongs stirring the pot of late, without the back ground history most of us know about here, which fanned some underlying coals. Some of the obviuos jabs were supposed to be humor, damned if not knowing someone and jabbing at them about something you don't know much about is humor.

I guess if I had to pick a rule for the forum, it would be - " If it doesn't pertain to you, or aimed at you, SHUT UP" ( Rude yes but it gets one attention, and is easy to call out).

It's as simple as, we are mostly adults here, this crap would not be tolerated just about no where. We don't need bannings or mass I'm quittings, we need to act like adults, and do the thing we came here to enjoy.

What was it they screamed out in the movie Tora Tora Tora - BONSAI ( I know different translation but you get my point)

 

[irene_b]

I am thinking that we all just need a cool down time.
Take a break for a day or two and come back and talk Trees.

And this includes Everybody!
Mom

 

[Vance Wood]

Not that anyone cares a lot, I too am thinking about leaving this unflushable toilet to its own over-flow. For the last two day, at least, it has been nothing but personal attack followed by personal attack; for what reason? Someone hates Will Heath? That is the dumbest thing I have heard since I encountered the term military intelligence. So it appears that you Will haters have finally gotten your way and now you can turn this forum into another grave yard of boring, inane, self serving, going no where, useless, endless, litany of masturbatory, back slapping crud. Break out the Champagne--so now where are you going to go?

Dale: I congratulate you on having the courage to start this thread and I am glad to have met you.

Irene: You are going to have to do a lot of writing to keep this thread buried, it is going to be my goal in life to keep this thread bumped till no one posts to it. I think there are a lot of things people that come to Bnut need to know and think about in this thread, be careful what you wish for you might get it----and all the problems that come with it.

 

[Vance Wood]

I am thinking that we all just need a cool down time.
Take a break for a day or two and come back and talk Trees.

And this includes Everybody!
Mom

I'm sorry Irene, but your attempts at being peace maker/undeclared moderator have done nothing but make things worse.

 

[Attila Soos]

This reminds me of watching my son and doughter play at their kindergarten. The four year-olds quietly play in a big room, scattered all over. Once in a while, a skirmish breaks out, and you hear them screaming "I hate you, I will never play with you again".

Five minutes later they are the best friends again, like nothing happened. It's really funny.

It looks like this is what happening here. Everybody is upset at everybody. Then half of the people leave and it will be quiet for a while, no more fights. Then slowly people start returning, and the cycle starts over.

It's really curious that you guys take these forums so seriously that you actually get upset about it. Just like some people actually get upset about their popcorn.

I don't claim to be "different" from any of you, but I just couldn't get myself to become upset or even disappointed about a forum. No matter what happens or what is being said here, it has nothing to do with real life. Absolutely nothing. So, how can you get disappointed or upset about an imaginary world?

 

[Vance Wood]

This reminds me of watching my son and doughter play at their kindergarten. The four year-olds quietly play in a big room, scattered all over. Once in a while, a skirmish breaks out, and you hear them screaming "I hate you, I will never play with you again".

Five minutes later they are the best friends again, like nothing happened. It's really funny.

It looks like this is what happening here. Everybody is upset at everybody. Then half of the people leave and it will be quiet for a while, no more fights. Then slowly people start returning, and the cycle starts over.

It's really curious that you guys take these forums so seriously that you actually get upset about it. Just like some people actually get upset about their popcorn.

I don't claim to be "different" from any of you, but I just couldn't get myself to become upset or even disappointed about a forum.

You're right Attila, about four year olds, their disagreements are only for a short time but that's not what's happening hear. Every time there is an attempt at a serious discussion someone comes on and turns it into hate Will thread, or a look at me and how much I know, or you don't know anything, or any one or combination of all the above. I'll stick around till this thread runs it course then I too will be gone in all probability.

 

[irene_b]

I'm sorry Irene, but your attempts at being peace maker/undeclared moderator have done nothing but make things worse.

Please explain this comment.
Irene

 

[Vance Wood]

You reward the bully by lumping the victim under the same punishment or judgement.

 

[irene_b]

You reward the bully by lumping the victim under the same punishment or judgement.

Who is the bully and who is the victim?
Irene

 

[grouper52]

I came here late and with mixed feelings several months ago when many of the more lively and experienced Old Timers drifted away from BS for greener pastures, such as BN originally offered. I notice that few of them show up here anymore either. When they all left, BS, kind of a homey/comfortable site for someone such as myself, went from being a nicely ecclectic mix of people to a site where newbies of the worst sort started to take over. I was soon the most experienced person there, apparently, at least that's what many told me, and if you know my level of expertise then you know that that ain't good! Simply ain't good at all!

I almost left there recently, burned out, but finally got the attention of the Admin, who is now stepping in again and trying to make some much-needed changes. I'm hoping some Old Timers will come back or give it a try again, or come try it out for the first time if you've never been a part of it and can refrain from the type of crap that ruined this site just now.

When I almost left BS recently, I kind of came back here to lurk a while and see how it would feel to try getting my feet wet again. The energy here was all focused on non-bonsai threads, dominated by the usual suspects, and this has gotten worse by the day. It has been strangely fascinating to watch, like a train wreck, but I watch this sort of stuff for a living, and for me it is more sad than fascinating anymore, especially when a worthwhile undertaking like BN gets ruined in the process. I may lurk, and there is one tree that Brent and some others gave me helpful feedback on a while back that I may follow up on, but I can't imagine this community being a big part of my life unless BN steps in and keeps the place policed, in the fashion of the "benevolent dictator" Brent talked about above.

My 2 inflation-adjusted centavos.

grouper52

 

[Graydon]

Dear Mr. Nut:

Please look me up at the GSBF show. I would like to shake your hand and buy you a beer if you so indulge as a small way of saying thank you for giving this a go. We could also discuss where I believe the train began to hop the tracks here. I must admit you have shown extreme patience in managing the site and members. If it were up to me I would have swung the ban hammer as if I were framing a house. And yes - i would have banned myself as in retrospect I believe I have been a jerk. I would like to say I'm sorry in person.

Everyone else - good night and good luck. It's been a bit bizarre.