Another Ume

Dav4

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Hey, Dav4... you’re a doctor! You perform surgery every day! Just give yourself some local, and DIY!

Easy-peasy!!!
Trust me, I've thought about it... and I'm not afraid to use my teeth to help tie a knot or cut some suture:D. Unfortunately, it's my "scalpel and needle driver" hand that needs the work and not my "forceps" hand... the resulting scar and disfigurement would be unsightly to say the least.
 

Nybonsai12

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Hope you got workers comp to pay for it!
Heal up quick Dave.
 

Dav4

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Hope you got workers comp to pay for it!
Heal up quick Dave.
Yeah, me, too. I've been injured so many times at work over the years and never bothered to report it. If I had known I was headed toward surgery... So far, $3,400 out of pocket and a week vacation time gone.... that could have been one hell of a nice pre-bonsai:rolleyes:.
 
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Yeah, me, too. I've been injured so many times at work over the years and never bothered to report it. If I had known I was headed toward surgery... So far, $3,400 out of pocket and a week vacation time gone.... that could have been one hell of a nice pre-bonsai:rolleyes:.
Damn. It not good to be old.
 

Dav4

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Damn. It not good to be old.
You got that right. Still, I'll take this over some of the alternatives... my best friend growing up and my brother in law were both diagnosed with colo-rectal cancer around the end of 2017... one was 49 and the other 51 and their respective surgeries were a bit more invasive then mine. They both needed colostomies while i needed an arthritic joint in my wrist cleaned out and a large ganglion cyst removed. With that being said, I'll be scheduling my colonoscopy shortly;)
 
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You got that right. Still, I'll take this over some of the alternatives... my best friend growing up and my brother in law were both diagnosed with colo-rectal cancer around the end of 2017... one was 49 and the other 51 and their respective surgeries were a bit more invasive then mine. They both needed colostomies while i needed an arthritic joint in my wrist cleaned out and a large ganglion cyst removed. With that being said, I'll be scheduling my colonoscopy shortly;)
Something to look forward to. :) Sorry I just can't help.
 

Maloghurst

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Fwiw, I agree with you! Proud to be an American, but Big Pharma and the Insurance industry are DEEP into the pockets of the politicians over here and we pay the price. Drugs, diagnostics, procedures all horribly overpriced. I agree with Lance, though... I want the Doc who makes $500,000 a year working part time to cut me.
Tough to get a Doctor to work for minimum wage!!
Should have said you had no insurance, probably cost you $300-400.....



Hope everything goes well @Dav4. Spent 20+ years grinding metal and my forearms and wrists won't ever be the same. Good luck!!:cool:
No doctor would ever need to be paid min wage. But let me ask you @Dav4. Would you rather have the person working on you with a genuine passion and calling to heal others? Or someone who just did it for the money? I know what I would choose.
Fair question. Either way you could wind up with a great doctor!
Hope your healing well and love your ideas with the tree!
 

Dav4

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No doctor would ever need to be paid min wage. But let me ask you @Dav4. Would you rather have the person working on you with a genuine passion and calling to heal others? Or someone who just did it for the money? I know what I would choose.
Fair question. Either way you could wind up with a great doctor!
Hope your healing well and love your ideas with the tree!
Honestly, I wouldn't care what my doctor's motives are for being a doctor as long as they're very good at it and respected by their clients and peers. Now, I don't know anyone who entered vet school who did it for the money... we all had a passion for medicine and wanted to do a good job, and I'm sure that most entering into medical school would feel the same way, though the financial upside for an M.D., and particularly a specialist like an orthopod, could influence their decision making a bit, but only slightly. My first employer told me "practice good medicine and you will make money". In other words, a good doctor is going to be well compensated. The doctor who performed my procedure is practicing at the top of his field, having achieved too many professional milestones to list, but a a few include being the chief of hand surgery for the largest hospital group in Atlanta, a clinical instructor for Emory Medical School, the upper extremity surgeon for Georgia Tech athletics, as well as the head team physician for the Atlanta Braves.... he's also authored over 100 articles and chapters in his field. I don't see how it would be possible to do/achieve all these things without having a passion for the work... and I bet this guy's ride is as nice as @Adair M 's:cool:.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I like the saying that goes something like:

Do something you love so much that you’d happily do it for free. Then do it so well that others will happily pay you to do it.

Happy healing Dave. Get those next 4 posts in so we can rename you!
 

Maloghurst

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let me play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion



I work in Surgery at McGill Univeristy. I don't know any doctor who went through 15 years of schooling 'just' for the money. But thankfully, that's an unrealistic dichotomy anyways. It is important to keep in mind that a career-driven doctor succeeds by excelling in patient-care.

To use an extreme example, even the hyper-profitable plastic surgery practices in LA or NY only succeed and are run by doctors who have spent a considerable amount of time educating themselves, developing their business through infrastructure and marketing, and finally making sure that their patients or clients receive the best possible treatment available, albeit at a hefty price. Even if you want to view this plastic surgeon as doing it 'just' for the money, it is very difficult to produce even a hypothetical scenario where that doctor is not obliged to provide the best possible care that (s)he can provide, if only for the sake of their business.

Canada is a good example of this. In Canada, we have a health care system where nearly all medical treatment that one could ever need is covered by the tax payer. For example, I can receive infinite chemotherapy without it costing me 1 penny more than the taxes that I and everyone else already pay. However, despite this model, the private medical industry is thriving in Canada -- people often rather get treated privately (and pay out of pocket, in addition to the obligatory taxes they already pay) because the 'money-oriented' doctors who choose to open these private business (as opposed to working in the publicly-funded sector) can provide superior treatments because it takes money to buy technology that makes more money that buys better technology. By contrast, innovation and 'improvement' in the publicly-funded sector is driven by cost-efficiency (e.g. we are currently looking for ways to increase recovery time after substantial surgeries; this helps the patient, but it also costs the gov't less in follow-up visits). That said, our publicly-funded hospitals are great.

one oversimplified way of looking at it (though not reflective of the nuances and complexity of each model):
private: money-driven doctors, working in a patient-oriented business model
public: patient-oriented doctors, working in a money-saving business model

To use another extreme example, I know very many doctors who have "a genuine passion and calling to heal others" but who simply provide treatment that is less than ideal because they are working in 'rural' areas of Canada, or in poor countries (e.g. Nepal)

by the way, wishing you a speedy recovery @Dav4 that Ume needs you!
Here’s an example for you.
You illustrate my point well. Thank you. Although you missed another example. The person with a avg grades in high school and a Doctorate from Harvard because their parents donated a ton of money. There are a ton of mediocre doctors that are in the profession because it pays.
My point was that Wealth does not equal Intelligence. Our obsession with wealth as a country is part of the problem as I see it. That why we have Trump as a president. Because of his “Big Brains” and wealth.
 

River's Edge

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let me play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion



I work in Surgery at McGill Univeristy. I don't know any doctor who went through 15 years of schooling 'just' for the money. But thankfully, that's an unrealistic dichotomy anyways. It is important to keep in mind that a career-driven doctor succeeds by excelling in patient-care.

To use an extreme example, even the hyper-profitable plastic surgery practices in LA or NY only succeed and are run by doctors who have spent a considerable amount of time educating themselves, developing their business through infrastructure and marketing, and finally making sure that their patients or clients receive the best possible treatment available, albeit at a hefty price. Even if you want to view this plastic surgeon as doing it 'just' for the money, it is very difficult to produce even a hypothetical scenario where that doctor is not obliged to provide the best possible care that (s)he can provide, if only for the sake of their business.

Canada is a good example of this. In Canada, we have a health care system where nearly all medical treatment that one could ever need is covered by the tax payer. For example, I can receive infinite chemotherapy without it costing me 1 penny more than the taxes that I and everyone else already pay. However, despite this model, the private medical industry is thriving in Canada -- people often rather get treated privately (and pay out of pocket, in addition to the obligatory taxes they already pay) because the 'money-oriented' doctors who choose to open these private business (as opposed to working in the publicly-funded sector) can provide superior treatments because it takes money to buy technology that makes more money that buys better technology. By contrast, innovation and 'improvement' in the publicly-funded sector is driven by cost-efficiency (e.g. we are currently looking for ways to increase recovery time after substantial surgeries; this helps the patient, but it also costs the gov't less in follow-up visits). That said, our publicly-funded hospitals are great.

one oversimplified way of looking at it (though not reflective of the nuances and complexity of each model):
private: money-driven doctors, working in a patient-oriented business model
public: patient-oriented doctors, working in a money-saving business model

To use another extreme example, I know very many doctors who have "a genuine passion and calling to heal others" but who simply provide treatment that is less than ideal because they are working in 'rural' areas of Canada, or in poor countries (e.g. Nepal)

by the way, wishing you a speedy recovery @Dav4 that Ume needs you!
Ah, the waiting times are often a deciding factor to choose private care in Canada. Two weeks ago faced with a four month wait for MRI, had one done and report completed in three days. Now faced with three or four month wait to see a Neurosurgeon or 1 week if i go private!
And nope i cannot claim back the private fees to the government coverage.
Wishing Dav4 the very best in recovery and understand the choices. Faster treatment, faster recovery and return to productive, pain free existence if all goes well!
Now the real question is will the Doctor take the time to heal or rush back to the office;). I am betting the former due to the oversight of a significant other.
 

Maloghurst

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let me play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion



I work in Surgery at McGill Univeristy. I don't know any doctor who went through 15 years of schooling 'just' for the money. But thankfully, that's an unrealistic dichotomy anyways. It is important to keep in mind that a career-driven doctor succeeds by excelling in patient-care.

To use an extreme example, even the hyper-profitable plastic surgery practices in LA or NY only succeed and are run by doctors who have spent a considerable amount of time educating themselves, developing their business through infrastructure and marketing, and finally making sure that their patients or clients receive the best possible treatment available, albeit at a hefty price. Even if you want to view this plastic surgeon as doing it 'just' for the money, it is very difficult to produce even a hypothetical scenario where that doctor is not obliged to provide the best possible care that (s)he can provide, if only for the sake of their business.

Canada is a good example of this. In Canada, we have a health care system where nearly all medical treatment that one could ever need is covered by the tax payer. For example, I can receive infinite chemotherapy without it costing me 1 penny more than the taxes that I and everyone else already pay. However, despite this model, the private medical industry is thriving in Canada -- people often rather get treated privately (and pay out of pocket, in addition to the obligatory taxes they already pay) because the 'money-oriented' doctors who choose to open these private business (as opposed to working in the publicly-funded sector) can provide superior treatments because it takes money to buy technology that makes more money that buys better technology. By contrast, innovation and 'improvement' in the publicly-funded sector is driven by cost-efficiency (e.g. we are currently looking for ways to increase recovery time after substantial surgeries; this helps the patient, but it also costs the gov't less in follow-up visits). That said, our publicly-funded hospitals are great.

one oversimplified way of looking at it (though not reflective of the nuances and complexity of each model):
private: money-driven doctors, working in a patient-oriented business model
public: patient-oriented doctors, working in a money-saving business model

To use another extreme example, I know very many doctors who have "a genuine passion and calling to heal others" but who simply provide treatment that is less than ideal because they are working in 'rural' areas of Canada, or in poor countries (e.g. Nepal)

by the way, wishing you a speedy recovery @Dav4 that Ume needs you!
Also I’ll pass on the devils advocate. We have plenty of them in the White House lobbies already as @Dav4 pointed out. I don’t know why it’s so difficult to envision something greater. Also I made a point in my first statement that “You can wind up with a great doctor either way”.

How about if we paid our high school teachers th same as doctors and our elementary school teachers the same as nurses and physicians asst?
 
D

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nobody disagrees with the point your point that "wealth does not equal intelligence".

a Doctorate from Harvard because their parents donated a ton of money
this does not exist. the scandals that emerge always involve undergraduate admissions.

it sounds like you are very unfamiliar with the process. it also sounds like you dislike the current state of affairs in your country. i cannot help you with the latter. here are a few things to consider regarding the former:

admission: graduate-level (especially medical residency) admissions are infinitely complex, involve multiple parties, and are essentially designed so that admission cannot be obtained through bribery or 'donation'. For example, at a school like Harvard there is a committee that evaluates candidates for medical residency. This committee is made up of internal and external evaluators, doctors, residents, students and administrators. each candidate is scored by each committee member on a variety of hands-on and theoretical criteria, and the results are compiled by an anonymous third-party.

evaluation: graduate-level education consists of hundreds of sub-components that involve assessment by a great number of known and anonymous evaluators. there is no single person who has a final say who could potentially be 'bribed'.

graduation: in order to get through a graduate degree in any field, one needs a faultless grasp of the material. in order to become a medical doctor in particular in the USA, one needs to pass through federally and nationally regulated licensing exams which are also made up of sub-components that are anonymously reviewed by third-party officials. nobody becomes a doctor or gets a PhD from any university without putting in the work.

funding: all medical residents are paid to study. I am not talking scholarships for a handful of people. literally all graduate students study for free, and receive salaries that cover living expenses and more. For example, a graduate student at Duke University can easily purchase a home in Durham, NC with the stipend provided by the university for those 6 years of study, and still live very comfortably during that time. This funding makes graduate-level education accessible to all

undergraduate admission can be bought, doctorates and medical degrees cannot.

employment: as mentioned above, the success and sustainability of one's private medical practice is dependent on the retention of a medical license, and satisfied clients. doctors (medical and other) remain responsible to continuing to remain up-to-par with technologies, practices and ideas. in hospitals, this is guaranteed through rigorous annual departmental and self-evaluations.

There are a ton of mediocre doctors that are in the profession because it pays.
the are also mediocre philosophers, architects, and carpenters. you get to decide where you spend your money.
 
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Maloghurst

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you seem to be missing my point and you continue to elaborate on things that actually have nothing to do with my post so I’m done.
Wasn’t meant to be a discussion so much as food for thought if we lived in a world where profit was not the motivating factor. I would like to give Dave his thread back.
 

Maloghurst

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nobody disagrees with the point your point that "wealth does not equal intelligence".



this does not exist. the scandals that emerge always involve undergraduate admissions.

it sounds like you are very unfamiliar with the process. it also sounds like you dislike the current state of affairs in your country. i cannot help you with the latter. here are a few things to consider regarding the former:

admission: graduate-level (especially medical residency) admissions are infinitely complex, involve multiple parties, and are essentially designed so that admission cannot be obtained through bribery or 'donation'. For example, at a school like Harvard there is a committee that evaluates candidates for medical residency. This committee is made up of internal and external evaluators, doctors, residents, students and administrators. each candidate is scored by each committee member on a variety of hands-on and theoretical criteria, and the results are compiled by an anonymous third-party.

evaluation: graduate-level education consists of hundreds of sub-components that involve assessment by a great number of known and anonymous evaluators. there is no single person who has a final say who could potentially be 'bribed'.

graduation: in order to get through a graduate degree in any field, one needs a faultless grasp of the material. in order to become a medical doctor in particular in the USA, one needs to pass through federally and nationally regulated licensing exams which are also made up of sub-components that are anonymously reviewed by third-party officials. nobody becomes a doctor or gets a PhD from any university without putting in the work.

funding: all medical residents are paid to study. I am not talking scholarships for a handful of people. literally all graduate students study for free, and receive salaries that cover living expenses and more. For example, a graduate student at Duke University can easily purchase a home in Durham, NC with the stipend provided by the university for those 6 years of study, and still live very comfortably during that time. This funding makes graduate-level education accessible to all

undergraduate admission can be bought, doctorates and medical degrees cannot.

employment: as mentioned above, the success and sustainability of one's private medical practice is dependent on the retention of a medical license, and satisfied clients. doctors (medical and other) remain responsible to continuing to remain up-to-par with technologies, practices and ideas. in hospitals, this is guaranteed through rigorous annual departmental and self-evaluations.



the are also mediocre philosophers, architects, and carpenters. you get to decide where you spend your money.
Your actually wrong and you infer too much from my post.
I did not say scandal. I said people are admitted to a place like Harvard because of donated wealth. Perfectly legal for Harvard to make exceptions.
My post was meant to pose a image of a world where profit was not primary motivator.
Your condescending rants are too time consuming to read. And have no bearing on my original question.
I feel bad that Dave’s thread was high jacked. So I would like to give it back to him now.
 
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