Any Pando-clone bonsai?

DavidBoren

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So, in Utah, there's this massive stand of Quaking Aspen that has cloned itself into the world's largest singular living organism, named Pando.

And I was wondering if bonsai exists that are genetic clones taken from Pando. I do not know if that is even legal, but I think it would be an interesting "bloodline" to preserve. One terrible bug or infection or fire could kill Pando, but its clones could exist in bonsai form all around the world.

Just curious.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I'm curious too! In the sense that I want a cutting. I know for a fact that there are clones out there. No biologist in their right mind would pass up on a chance like that.

They did it to the Anne Frank chestnut that fell ill.
I live close to one of the oldest trees in the country and I'm going out next spring to grab a piece of history.
 

DavidBoren

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Pando is in a National Forest, but people are allowed into those [National Forests]. Looks like you could stop along Highway 25 on the way to Fish Lake, just walk into the forest [Pando] and take an ethically collected sample. Probably should do it sooner rather than later if possible... Pando is said to be in decline. Also, be aware that overbrowsing from deer is a huge contribution to Pando's decline, so don't just go yanking new growth out of Pando's root system... Pando needs as much new growth as possible.

I would love to get a Pando sample when I am better at bonsai processes, as I do not want to kill such a unique organism. I don't know if collecting a sample personally is worth purposefully going to Utah, though. There is literally nothing else in Utah that I find interesting. Lol.
 

moke

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There is literally nothing else in Utah that I find interesting
Then you obviously haven’t done much research on Utah, it is an amazing state full of beauty and amazing places……Or wait never mind you’re right nothing else interesting in Utah don’t waist your time going to Utah not worth the trip.
 

DavidBoren

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I have not researched much about Utah.

I know it has Mormons and fake beer. I really like the movie SLC Punk, if that means anything. A few decades ago, the SLC airport used to have a smoking room... which I greatly appreciated every time I passed through. Outside of that, pictures of Utah look like Mars to me. Barren red rock, not unlike parts of Wyoming, and Mars, is something I have a hard time finding beauty in... much less find myself interested in.

I don't ski/snowboard. I am not going to go to Utah to fish/hunt when I can fish/hunt in Oregon, or go back to Montana and fish/hunt where I grew up fishing/hunting. I don't know enough about Utah other than those few things to even know what to research.

Utah have a crazy hot paintball scene I am unaware of?
 

parhamr

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The National Forest district holding Pando does issue Transplant Permits: https://www.fs.usda.gov/main/fishlake/passes-permits/forestproducts

That does generally cover collecting a sample from Pando, but you'd have to check with the local ranger district to see where collection is prohibited, which may or may not cover the area of Pando.

This is just by the books, however, and doesn’t cover the opinion of whether or not this is ethical or moral.
 

DavidBoren

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Cool. I may have to find an excuse to get down there.

It might be easier to have someone more local collect the sample and send it to me... obviously with whatever compensation is deemed appropriate for such a task.

So, if someone is within sunny afternoon drive distance from Fish Lake and wants to get one [or more] of those aforementioned Transplant Permits... let me know.
 

hemmy

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fake beer
Fake news!
Here’s one of the best breweries west of the Rockies and really probably in the upper ranks of the whole country.

 

parhamr

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Cool. I may have to find an excuse to get down there.

It might be easier to have someone more local collect the sample and send it to me... obviously with whatever compensation is deemed appropriate for such a task.

So, if someone is within sunny afternoon drive distance from Fish Lake and wants to get one [or more] of those aforementioned Transplant Permits... let me know.
The ranger district offices out west are pretty quiet in the off season and some are only open half days, four days a week. I don’t know what it’s like around Fish Lake, but a phone call to the office is wise to double check any posted info.

In the off season you do get the fortune of usually dealing with the more experienced staff, so it’s possible they’ll know exactly where to find and how to process the transplant permit. You’re not looking for a Christmas tree or firewood permit, which is maybe 95 percent of what they’re dealing with right now. I think this is in a category called special forest products, if that helps them to find the right book or binder.

Full transparency with the ranger staff helps, but don’t bother trying to explain bonsai in great detail. I’ve had good experiences saying I’m an avid hiker and like niche landscaping, so it’s nice to pick up a few native plants for my own yard. Try to ask up front for conditions, closures, and harvest restrictions.

For some areas and times of the year the major concern of the ranger district might be to protect Native American treaty rights to specific harvests.

Aside from all those other details, be prepared to think tactically on a topographic map. Certain districts only allow collecting within a few dozen feet of an established road but others only allow transplant harvesting from areas a certain distance from roads.

Good luck, y’all!
 

Mike Corazzi

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I'm curious too! In the sense that I want a cutting. I know for a fact that there are clones out there. No biologist in their right mind would pass up on a chance like that.

They did it to the Anne Frank chestnut that fell ill.
I live close to one of the oldest trees in the country and I'm going out next spring to grab a piece of history.

This one?

obverse.JPG
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I live in another country. There's a linden tree three miles from my home, estimated to be 350-500 years old.
Considering this patch of land has been inhabited since Roman times, that's a long time evading human meddling.
IMG_20210124_155152.jpg
 

AJL

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What an awesome old tree... it is impressive that it has been left alone for that long.
I doubt its been left alone entirely! It looks like it might have been pollarded long ago and pruned more recently which can help prolong the life of some veteran trees
 

DavidBoren

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But it hasn't been destroyed to make room for a freaking McDonald's or Wal*Mart... that's what I meant more than anything.

In the town I used to live, there is a road that is otherwise straight except for a tiny zig around an old pine tree. I really appreciated that they didn't bulldoze that tree just to make room for the shoulder/sidewalk... the sidewalk actually zags the other way, to the other side of this tree. It isn't anything special, just a pine tree [maybe a meter in diameter], and I am positive they removed similar trees for this stretch of road. Why THAT one was allowed to stand, and not only that, but have civilization bend around it, is beyond me.

But it is cool when humanity doesn't destroy literally EVERYTHING we touch...
 

Flowerhouse

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Fake news!
Here’s one of the best breweries west of the Rockies and really probably in the upper ranks of the whole country.

Red Rock Brewing is my favorite place in SLC.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Pando is amazing, and my younger self would have wanted a piece of it to memorialize as a bonsai. But my more mature self would not do it.

First, trees in private collections rarely live very long. Be honest, how many plants have you had in your collection that have died? How many plants have persisted for more than a decade? How many more than 2 decades in your care? Plants, trees, bonsai in private collections die pretty regularly. Public collections are only incrementally better at keeping rare specimens growing. Collecting trees is not like collecting coins or baseball cards. We are all human, when I accidentally killed a pomegranate tree that I had successfully kept growing for 41 or 42 years, I was devastated. Not only had I lost an "old friend" it was time into a project I could not live long enough to replicate.

It also caused me to rethink this idea of keeping rare specimens. You know bonsai is about appearance. In general, at bonsai shows, the judges do the judging "blind" in that they do not read anything beyond the species name of the tree if they don't recognize it from the foliage. The appearance of the bonsai when shown is all that counts. Not how the tree "could look", and none of the history of the tree counts in the judging. Judging is about the image presented, nothing more. Hand outs, photos, long typewritten descriptions of provenance do not add anything to the points when judged, appearance only is what counts. At some shows, there is a category for educational exhibits, where a 'Pando' clone would clean up on ribbons, but as classical bonsai, the origin of the tree does not matter, it is appearance only that counts.

Yes, having a piece of 'Pando' would be an educational curiosity, but beyond that, the genetics really don't add to the ''bonsai image".

'Pando' is the only the oldest documented woody tree clone. There may be others out there, possibly older. Some of the creosote bushes in the Great Basin desert may be as old or even older than 'Pando'. They form circles in the desert, much like 'Pando'.

'Pando' is in trouble for several reasons. Deer are grazing new growth as fast as it is formed. Cages have been installed in areas to give new shoots a chance. Wolves and other predators of deer and elk need to recover in order to bring down that predation. It is also doomed in the long term for metabolic reasons. It's telomeres and other cellular mechanisms have shortened and aged to the point where 'Pando' no longer produces fertile seed or pollen. Meiosis is no longer successful. It functionally is "post-reproductive" it no longer contributes to the gene pool for aspen. It probably quit producing viable seed near 1000 years ago. Some centuries in the future it will be eventually die because its cellular machinery will no longer be able to successfully do mitosis, basic cell division required for growth and life. It may be centuries, maybe another millennium, but the future for 'Pando' is a long slow decline. Climate change is real, and likely will have its own adverse effect on 'Pando' in the near future, but I don't know what that will be.

So if you did get a piece of 'Pando' you might find it difficult to grow due to aging of its cellular molecular machinery (biochemistry). It would likely be difficult to get cuttings to root or transplants to recover from root disturbance. But you don't know if you don't try.

The above comments about bonsai judging being based on "appearance only at the time shown" is one of the reasons that there are no "bonus points" for doing bonsai with rare and exotic trees. Nobody cares if it is an endangered species or not, the focus is the appearance, the creation of an image.

Personally I was disappointed when I realized bonsai with rare species is not regarded as "special", because I like the idea of collecting rare plants. But it is a fact. And so no "bonus points" for "rare stuff". All the points are on how well the image is executed.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Botany of Utah is fascinating. There are quite a number of endemic species of plants native to Utah. If you want to "up your game" on identifying flora of the desert areas of western USA watch some of the videos from Tony Santoro, of "Crime Pays but Botany Doesn't". In particular look into his archive, about 1 to 3 years ago he takes several trips passing through Utah. Some of the Nevada botany is quite relevant.

Tony is a bit vulgar, and does crazy "Chicago dialect" mispronunciations of the botanical terms, but he uses the terms correctly. His botanical taxonomy is spot on. Irreverent, but correct.

If you are into kusamono, some excellent ideas for species that might be attractive are highlighted. Some of the little buckwheat family (genus Eriogonum in particular) might be attractive additions to kusamono. He is always featuring one of the near 1000 species of Eriogonum that are scattered across North America.

 
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