Anyone good with investing in this thread?

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Shogun610

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We invest our time for the future in Bonsai. Doubt I’m the only one whom thinks of Bonsai as appreciating assets. I mean I’d be at a loss if something happened to the material I worked on with enthusiasts / teachers / friends in bonsai , even the effort spent on acquiring or working on to take into next stages of development in Bonsai…. I’d be crushed. As they age they improve or are already of provenance , as our skills improve the aesthetics/ horticultural value improves as well. Even the ceramics they are contained in appreciate in value ( I say this because besides training pots, all my ceramics are of some value/ made by well known or up and coming ceramicists) as they age they acquire patina or provenance.
The subjection of value is up to interpretation.
I almost wish there was a matrix of Bonsai / ceramics that could help alleviate those questions when we go into the marketplace or obtain/create the material ourselves. I know there are auctions that take place both here and around the world in Bonsai.
If you’re still reading perhaps you can read between the lines of what I’m talking about . Besides a more technical method to truly determine the value of all items we use in Bonsai, perhaps there is a way to utilize that captured beauty in that time of its life/ iteration that would hold value , and be backed by the fact that the material captured is living and appreciating in value like that of the Bonsai that’s captured.
No I’m not in Bonsai for any monetary reason , it’s simply a far fetched idea. At the end of the day we do this because we love Bonsai . I’m just bored /thinking. Kinda like trading cards / but electronically captured and acquire value like the Bonsai image they have.
Bonsai NTF’s
 
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Bonsai Nut

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While the tech behind NFT's is somewhat new, the concept is not. It's the same as having an international bonsai ledger... or a record of provenance in the case of fine art. NFT's are used in cases where the you want to secure the distribution channel and ensure the legitimacy of a source product.

As in the case of any other tech product that many people don't understand, the ultimate utility of NFT's is both greater - and less - than the current hype. The hype is "get rich quick" idiots who are buying and selling products secured by NFT's as if the NFT is itself where the value lies. A $100 piece of electronic art with an NFT is still, at the end of the day, a $100 piece of electronic art... and nothing about the NFT makes it more expensive (or protects it from being copied - you would just be unable to copy the NFT). It is for all intents and purposes a unique electronic watermark... albeit one that can easily be removed. The buyer (or end user) has to require the NFT for a transaction in order for the NFT to have any use.

The true value of NFT's is not about securing expensive things (since there are already many ways to do so)... it's about securing inexpensive things with complicated or insecure distribution networks. Think "blood samples" or "broccoli sprouts" - where keeping track of an item from its source through many layers of distribution is complicated, expensive, and potentially perilous (in the case of mixing up blood samples, or losing track of where a piece of produce came from when someone gets sick from it).

The only way a bonsai NFT would work is if the end user - the bonsai buyer - would not buy a bonsai without an NFT (as an electronic provenance). I just don't see the demand for it - because provenance in most bonsai cases is less important than the tree itself. And don't forget that anyone can create an NFT ledger, and the cost to maintain one is minimal. What happens if instead of a single bonsai NFT ledger there is suddenly two... and then 20? "My bonsai is secured by the Midwest Upper Region of Bonsai Professionals but not Cleveland" Bonsai NFT"? For it to work at all, all suppliers would agree to using a single ledger... and all buyers would agree to the same. Right now I can buy a piece of electronic art, copy it (but not its NFT), assign a new NFT to it using my own ledger with a fancy name, and resell it on the open market and probably get some idiot to buy it because they don't understand what they are buying. After all, they would open the file and voila - there is the art! Not many people sophisticated enough to understand how to verify an NFT if they don't really know what they are doing. The only way to really know is to have a closed NFT infrastructure to manage NFT's - their assignment and transfer. And therein lies the money - the companies that create and manage those systems - not the idiots buying and selling bad electronic art.
 
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Forsoothe!

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Perishable Bitcoin. PT was right.
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

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While the tech behind NFT's is somewhat new, the concept is not. It's the same as having an international bonsai ledger... or a record of provenance in the case of fine art. NFT's are used in cases where the you want to secure the distribution channel and ensure the legitimacy of a source product.

As in the case of any other tech product that many people don't understand, the ultimate utility of NFT's is both greater - and less - than the current hype. The hype is "get rich quick" idiots who are buying and selling products secured by NFT's as if the NFT is itself where the value lies. A $100 piece of electronic art with an NFT is still, at the end of the day, a $100 piece of electronic art... and nothing about the NFT makes it more expensive (or protects it from being copied - you would just be unable to copy the NFT). It is for all intents and purposes a unique electronic watermark... albeit one that can easily be removed. The buyer (or end user) has to require the NFT for a transaction in order for the NFT to have any use.

The true value of NFT's is not about securing expensive things (since there are already many ways to do so)... it's about securing inexpensive things with complicated or insecure distribution networks. Think "blood samples" or "broccoli sprouts" - where keeping track of an item from its source through many layers of distribution is complicated, expensive, and potentially perilous (in the case of mixing up blood samples, or losing track of where a piece of produce came from when someone gets sick from it).

The only way a bonsai NFT would work is if the end user - the bonsai buyer - would not buy a bonsai without an NFT (as an electronic provenance). I just don't see the demand for it - because provenance in most bonsai cases is less important than the tree itself. And don't forget that anyone can create an NFT ledger, and the cost to maintain one is minimal. What happens if instead of a single bonsai NFT ledger there is suddenly two... and then 20? "My bonsai is secured by the Midwest Upper Region of Bonsai Professionals but not Cleveland" Bonsai NFT"? For it to work at all, all suppliers would agree to using a single ledger... and all buyers would agree to the same. Right now I can buy a piece of electronic art, copy it (but not its NFT), assign a new NFT to it using my own ledger with a fancy name, and resell it on the open market and probably get some idiot to buy it because they don't understand what they are buying. After all, they would open the file and voila - there is the art! Not many people sophisticated enough to understand how to verify an NFT if they don't really know what they are doing. The only way to really know is to have a closed NFT infrastructure to manage NFT's - their assignment and transfer. And therein lies the money - the companies that create and manage those systems - not the idiots buying and selling bad electronic art.
So many more use cases than electric art. Two biggest issue is we are soooo early and the Bonsai key demo is like 70 years old. But there’s no doubt in my mind that NFTs and bonsai can and will be able to work together.
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

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But SHOULD they?
Of course, why not? Anything that supports the bonsai ecosystem and highlights/empowers bonsai artists is a good thing, no? Not to mention bringing a new, younger, and tech savvy demo into bonsai. What's the downside?
 

Bonsai Nut

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Of course, why not? Anything that supports the bonsai ecosystem and highlights/empowers bonsai artists is a good thing, no? Not to mention bringing a new, younger, and tech savvy demo into bonsai. What's the downside?
You sell me a bonsai with an NFT tag. I throw the tag in the trash. Maybe I don't care who worked on the tree in the past. Maybe they are a person I hope to forget :) How am I any worse off? And meanwhile... you get to maintain that NFT ledger FOR ALL TIME because you will never know that I threw my tag in the trash. And as long as even ONE PERSON holds a tag, you have a responsibility (if not a financial liability) to maintain the ledger.

Granted, I use the example of a physical tag because it is easier to wrap your mind around the concept, while I know NFT's are electronic. But just like bitcoin, they can be deleted, lost, forgotten, stolen. In cases of electronic property, the lack of an NFT (where one existed before) may seriously effect value. In the case of a bonsai tree... when I still have the bonsai tree?

Heck, in the case of bitcoin, it is believed that 20% may be lost for all time. "May be" because no one really knows - just that the coins are inactive.
 
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Kanorin

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Of course, why not? Anything that supports the bonsai ecosystem and highlights/empowers bonsai artists is a good thing, no? Not to mention bringing a new, younger, and tech savvy demo into bonsai. What's the downside?
In my view the downside is making something more complicated than it needs to be. I can think of several ways this kind of system can be exploited as well.
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

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You sell me a bonsai with an NFT tag. I throw the tag in the trash. How am I any worse off? And meanwhile... you get to maintain that NFT ledger FOR ALL TIME because you will never know that I threw my tag in the trash. And as long as even ONE PERSON holds a tag, you have a responsibility (if not a financial liability) to maintain the ledger.
You're not wrong. I just think you need to put a wider lense on your camera:) NFTs are being used for so many things. Art, fractional ownership, club membership, etc, etc. The benefits of blockchain are that it's country/currency neutral. You, me and @leatherback can be equal, even if we live in different countries, with different currencies. To me, that's exciting. The use case is not, here's my bonsai, buy it and get an NFT tag. The use cases go bigger than that. Not to mention the metaverse, which honestly freaks me out a bit, but it's coming and it should have bonsai inside it!!!
 

PeaceLoveBonsai

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I'm gonna throw out one use case. To me this is simple. And you tell me if this isn't good for the ecosystem.

Stacy Allen Muse is a fantastic artist. He puts up one of his pieces of art on FB auctions and it sells in 2 seconds, as it should, because they are great.

Now imagine Stacy creates those pieces not on a standard 16x24, but on the blockchain. Let's discuss the benefits to Stacy

1. Larger audience. FB auctions vs the entire world of crypto/NFTs.
2. When and if it's resold, Stacy gets a commission. This happens FOREVER. Great benefit for the artist.

Now, let's discuss the benefit for the buyer
1. It's undeniably authentic. You can see it on the block chain. (And of course, the uneducated will say "right click save", but if you're in the space at all, you know that doesn't work).
2. In real life artwork has issues with wear & tear. Not on the blockchain. It's perfect on day 1 and day 1,000 & day 100,000.
3. All artists will go this direction, its just matter of time. Would you like to own the first Stacy Allen Muse NFT art piece or his 1,000th?
4. Easy to sell. Again, the marketplace for crypto/nft is large and growing. I can easily sell my SAM piece of art to anyone in the world in seconds.


NFTs and crypto are not for everyone, but the above situation would enhance and highlight both Stacy and his art to different and broader audience. It would also highlight bonsai. Again, I ask, what's the downside? You don't have to like it or buy it, but it seems like a good use of his time, no?

*edit: #4 for benefits of buyer.
 

PA_Penjing

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I just save receipts and keep my bench 10 feet from my porch, that way home insurance covers my trees. No clue how the conversation would actually go but I have my bases half assed covered.
 

Shogun610

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Would also allow for people’s own collections to have appraisal and be backed by NFT/ blockchain. Say you have a great collection or one that’s growing… you know what you’ve spend on materials to produce and maintain the bonsai. Well now that’s all accounted for , and you have ability to claim the Bonsai in your collection as assets , that is reflected on the NFT of each/ collection of Trees
 
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