Anyone have experience with mutagenic compounds?

[BillsBayou]

We have plenty of techniques for reducing leaf size and internodal gaps, but how many of us are screwing around with plant DNA?

Portulacaria afra "Cork Bark", as I was told, was created when someone applied DDT insecticide to their plants. Many plants died because of the misapplication, but one portulacaria afra developed a cork bark texture. Lacking access to DDT (as we should) I wondered what compounds create mutations in plants. That's when I found ethyl methansulfonate (EMS).

As much as I would love to experiment with soaking seeds in various concentrations of EMS, this compound specializes in mutating DNA. It gets into the coding of an organism and converts bonded pairs into something else. RANDOMLY. It doesn't care what DNA it modifies; plants, animals, or fungi. I'm a "fun guy" and I don't want to be mutated. Thus, lacking the knowledge of what knowledge I am lacking, I'll likely end up with tumors, not super-powers.

While we do have fume hoods on campus, I'm an I.T. guy, not an organic chemistry guy. Hmmm... I wonder if I could sift the university database to find the right grad student for the job.
SELECT name, stuID, stuEmail FROM studentsTable WHERE stuPersonality = 'schmuck';
0 Rows returned

The only mutagenic compound I could find that was not also listed as carcinogenic is benomyl. Searching Amazon for "benomyl" yeilds plenty of fungicides, one .117 caliber pistol, but nothing with benomyl.

So that's why I'm curious if anyone here has any experience with PROPERLY experimenting with mutagenic compounds.

 

[BrightsideB]

I have never experimented like that but I think it is definitely interesting. I gather seeds from several locations with a diverse population of maples. And I have several trees that have much different growth habits and foliage from the mother tree. I’d imagine if you were to do what you want to try. Collecting or buying seeds from different areas and suppliers would help by having different genetics to test. I think that would be important.

 

[ShadyStump]

@RKMcGinnis, you're not wrong, but I'll give the requisite argument for stronger controls for the purposeof knowing exactly what did what.
A huge diversity of stuff to experiment on is good for obtaining a diversity of results, but no good for knowing what caused those results.

That said, I'm actually totally the guy who would do exactly what you said if I were the sort of guy to do it.
I personally tend to favor more natural organic processes for things like this, but I'm also fascinated by the application of mad science. Kinda in the same way people watch horror movies or train wrecks or riots.

I'm kinda conducting a Darwinian experiment on my tiny patch of lawn in the back yard. I just collect seed from wherever I find it - people's unkempt lawns as I walk by, trail sides, that super low growing fast seeding stuff at the park, etc. Even certain weeds - and throw it on my little patch. Eventually whatever survives will be drought tolerant, shade tolerant, traffic resisting and low maintenance, right?
Does that count?

 

[BillsBayou]

I have never experimented like that but I think it is definitely interesting. I gather seeds from several locations with a diverse population of maples. And I have several trees that have much different growth habits and foliage from the mother tree. I’d imagine if you were to do what you want to try. Collecting or buying seeds from different areas and suppliers would help by having different genetics to test. I think that would be important.

I think you're talking about selective cross-breeding. With your method, you'd wait for the seedlings to mature and cross pollinate them. Faster results may come from collecting flowers from trees in one region and using the pollen on flowers in another region. Changes in morphology are typically within expected results.

Mutagenics, however, involves soaking the seeds in various concentrations of DNA-altering compounds. The mutations are graded against desired results. Then the selected plants are either tested to see if the mutations carry on through generations or cuttings are propagated to maintain the mutation. Changes in morphology using mutagenic compounds are random and sometimes outside the results you can get with cross-breeding.

 

[BillsBayou]

... I'm also fascinated by the application of mad science... whatever survives will be drought tolerant, shade tolerant, traffic resisting and low maintenance, right?

Mad science + Challenge testing = Thunderdome gardening!

Let me know when your lawn begins to consume neighborhood cats. I'd like to plant a lawn like that around my bonsai benches.

 

[NaoTK]

In the orchid world they have been using ion beams to produce mutants for decades.

Mutation breeding of ornamental plants using ion beams

Ornamental plants that have a rich variety of flower colors and shapes are highly prized in the commercial flower market, and therefore, mutant cultivars that produce different types of flowers while retaining their growth habits are in demand. Furthermore, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301628430_Mutation_Induction_of_Orchid_Plants_by_Ion_Beams#:~:text=Mutation%20induction%20using%20ionizing%20radiation,frequency%20and%20broad%20mutation%20spectrum.

 

[BillsBayou]

In the orchid world they have been using ion beams to produce mutants for decades.

Mutation breeding of ornamental plants using ion beams

Ornamental plants that have a rich variety of flower colors and shapes are highly prized in the commercial flower market, and therefore, mutant cultivars that produce different types of flowers while retaining their growth habits are in demand. Furthermore, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301628430_Mutation_Induction_of_Orchid_Plants_by_Ion_Beams#:~:text=Mutation%20induction%20using%20ionizing%20radiation,frequency%20and%20broad%20mutation%20spectrum.

"The ion beam facility at the Takasaki Advanced Radiation Research Institute, the National Institutes for Quantum and Radiological Science and Technology, consists of a cyclotron and three electrostatic accelerators, and they are dedicated to studies of materials science and bio-technology."

Pretty sure that's out of my budget.

 

[BrianBay9]

So that's why I'm curious if anyone here has any experience with PROPERLY experimenting with mutagenic compounds.

This is the most important sentence in this thread so far.....An IT guy doing this with stuff bought off of Amazon is a spectacularly bad idea, so I'm assuming that was a joke. Check your university for the ag school and someone doing tissue culture propagation of plants. They will have more control over the process than soaking seeds. Good luck finding someone as curious as you for bonsai purposes.

 

[Flowerhouse]

We have plenty of techniques for reducing leaf size and internodal gaps, but how many of us are screwing around with plant DNA?

Portulacaria afra "Cork Bark", as I was told, was created when someone applied DDT insecticide to their plants. Many plants died because of the misapplication, but one portulacaria afra developed a cork bark texture. Lacking access to DDT (as we should) I wondered what compounds create mutations in plants. That's when I found ethyl methansulfonate (EMS).

As much as I would love to experiment with soaking seeds in various concentrations of EMS, this compound specializes in mutating DNA. It gets into the coding of an organism and converts bonded pairs into something else. RANDOMLY. It doesn't care what DNA it modifies; plants, animals, or fungi. I'm a "fun guy" and I don't want to be mutated. Thus, lacking the knowledge of what knowledge I am lacking, I'll likely end up with tumors, not super-powers.

While we do have fume hoods on campus, I'm an I.T. guy, not an organic chemistry guy. Hmmm... I wonder if I could sift the university database to find the right grad student for the job.
SELECT name, stuID, stuEmail FROM studentsTable WHERE stuPersonality = 'schmuck';
0 Rows returned

The only mutagenic compound I could find that was not also listed as carcinogenic is benomyl. Searching Amazon for "benomyl" yeilds plenty of fungicides, one .117 caliber pistol, but nothing with benomyl.

So that's why I'm curious if anyone here has any experience with PROPERLY experimenting with mutagenic compounds.

This is an @Wires_Guy_wires question, I think.

 

[BillsBayou]

This is the most important sentence in this thread so far.....An IT guy doing this with stuff bought off of Amazon is a spectacularly bad idea, so I'm assuming that was a joke. Check your university for the ag school and someone doing tissue culture propagation of plants. They will have more control over the process than soaking seeds. Good luck finding someone as curious as you for bonsai purposes.

It was not a joke at first. I want to mutate something's DNA and see what I get. As soon as I examined that goal a little further "mutate something's DNA" I was fascinated, and immediately scared. I told my friend at last night's bonsai meeting "My tumors will be beautiful and my urine will be bright red."

The bonsai community is filled with people from all walks of life. Finding someone who knows what they're doing is not out of the realm of possibility.

 

[ShadyStump]

This is the most important sentence in this thread so far.....An IT guy doing this with stuff bought off of Amazon is a spectacularly bad idea, so I'm assuming that was a joke. Check your university for the ag school and someone doing tissue culture propagation of plants. They will have more control over the process than soaking seeds. Good luck finding someone as curious as you for bonsai purposes.

Sad but true.
Still, it'd be fun to watch.

 

[BillsBayou]

Kelthane might do the trick. I happen to have some already. I use it on my junipers as a miticide. It just so happens that Kelthane has a link to DDT. I think I'm beginning to understand why it is off the market. Whatever benefits it has for killing mites, I won't be misting this stuff onto my junipers any longer.

Still a bad idea for Bill Butler to experiment with mutagenics in a residential garden. The headline will read "USDA Superfund Site Declared in Southeast Louisiana".

 

[ShadyStump]

My tumors will be beautiful

I can see very profitable applications for untreatable cancer cases.

 

[ShadyStump]

Bit much?
Yeah, probably.

 

[Paradox]

I would venture that most bonsai hobbiests do not have the education nor the access to the equipment and facilities necessary to conduct such experiments properly.

 

[rockm]

We have plenty of techniques for reducing leaf size and internodal gaps, but how many of us are screwing around with plant DNA?

Portulacaria afra "Cork Bark", as I was told, was created when someone applied DDT insecticide to their plants. Many plants died because of the misapplication, but one portulacaria afra developed a cork bark texture. Lacking access to DDT (as we should) I wondered what compounds create mutations in plants. That's when I found ethyl methansulfonate (EMS).

As much as I would love to experiment with soaking seeds in various concentrations of EMS, this compound specializes in mutating DNA. It gets into the coding of an organism and converts bonded pairs into something else. RANDOMLY. It doesn't care what DNA it modifies; plants, animals, or fungi. I'm a "fun guy" and I don't want to be mutated. Thus, lacking the knowledge of what knowledge I am lacking, I'll likely end up with tumors, not super-powers.

While we do have fume hoods on campus, I'm an I.T. guy, not an organic chemistry guy. Hmmm... I wonder if I could sift the university database to find the right grad student for the job.
SELECT name, stuID, stuEmail FROM studentsTable WHERE stuPersonality = 'schmuck';
0 Rows returned

The only mutagenic compound I could find that was not also listed as carcinogenic is benomyl. Searching Amazon for "benomyl" yeilds plenty of fungicides, one .117 caliber pistol, but nothing with benomyl.

So that's why I'm curious if anyone here has any experience with PROPERLY experimenting with mutagenic compounds.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read in the last month or so ..

You've got dimwitted company--Orchid growers, BTW, look to similar solutions (including reportedly putting seeds into the microwave oven for a secondor so) to spur mutations...You might find other fanatics and/or morons here:

Radiation for mutation - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

Hello, I am a researcher for National Geographic and I am looking to interview somebody who has attempted to irradiate orchids or orchid seeds in orde

www.orchidboard.com

Also look up colchicine:

colchicine, orchid hybridization

www.orchidsource.com

And ethylene

Frontiers | Ethylene Role in Plant Growth, Development and Senescence: Interaction with Other Phytohormones

The complex juvenile/maturity transition during a plant’s life cycle includes growth, reproduction, and senescence of its fundamental organs: leaves, flowers...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[ShadyStump]

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read in the last month or so ..

You've got dimwitted company--Orchid growers, BTW, look to similar solutions (including reportedly putting seeds into the microwave oven for a secondor so) to spur mutations...You might find other fanatics and/or morons here:

Radiation for mutation - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

Hello, I am a researcher for National Geographic and I am looking to interview somebody who has attempted to irradiate orchids or orchid seeds in orde

www.orchidboard.com

I think it's just a thought experiment at best at this point. The dangers have been hardily acknowledged right off the bat.

I assume someone is working on a Little Shop Of Horrors meme now.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I had a port growing once near my microwave and after years of radiation exposure it became sentient. I will never mess with plant DNA again.

 

[NaoTK]

"The ion beam facility at the Takasaki Advanced Radiation Research Institute, the National Institutes for Quantum and Radiological Science and Technology, consists of a cyclotron and three electrostatic accelerators, and they are dedicated to studies of materials science and bio-technology."

Pretty sure that's out of my budget.

Those are research papers. Hobbyists use a table top ebeam gun loaded with a gold target. It is still 5-10k but that's what the pros do.

 

[BillsBayou]

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read in the last month or so ..

Only took me an hour and a half