Anyone With Birds Nest Spruce?

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You are one zone too far south. Depending upon your micro-climate & weather, you need to find a more heat-tolerant species.
Bummer. Got it at the local Home Depot too

You know, I believe it started going during the heatwave. Guess it didn’t like the 110+ for the week and a half, lol... which prob wasn’t an unusual heatwave for us. We maxed out at 117
 

Forsoothe!

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This is a Norway Spruce. Picture Norway in your mind's eye. Yeah, Spruces in-between glaciers...
 

Hartinez

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I have one. I did nothing to it. It’s been dying back for months, needles falling off. No clue what’s up with it

I’ve been debating chucking it
It can be done for sure. I’m in zone 7a Abq NM, southwest. ABQ is a mile high and the sun can be fucking intense. I’ve got 2 that I purchased this spring. Repotted both with some root work, mostly removing some of the old soil. And I cut back unwanted runners leaving the trunk line that appealed to me most. All of the buds pushed strong, extended hardened off and have now formed new buds along that growth and down on old wood. The few jins and Shari I created also calloused at speeds and levels I don’t see often. I have kept them in an hour or 2 of morning sun then dappled shade the rest of the day and planted in pure pumice. I will cut back to interior buds and wire both trees come spring 2022.
 

Hartinez

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Both of these will need significant cutbacks further in towards the trunk reducing the overall silhouette.
936A96E4-2F97-4CFB-A761-3D1397A3F93A.jpeg6E6CE316-8E5C-4D8C-872F-39D8F18269F8.jpeg
This Shari is already about disappeared.
C9094369-D228-4412-B9F9-7A649872823E.jpeg
And in spring 2023 I will work the roots much harder getting them both in suitable pots. Especially the larger of the 2.
 
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Your area seems to average 10F cooler than we do. You are higher in elevation than us. I believe that we can get hotter heatwaves than you

I’ll see what happens with it come winter, otherwise, it may just be a stay of execution if my zone is just too hot for it. I really don’t want material that can’t take the heat, literally

Then again, if I might want to try JBP, it will need some babying if it gets over 105 for too long, so maybe I just need to get something worked out for it
 

Hartinez

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Your area seems to average 10F cooler than we do. You are higher in elevation than us. I believe that we can get hotter heatwaves than you

I’ll see what happens with it come winter, otherwise, it may just be a stay of execution if my zone is just too hot for it. I really don’t want material that can’t take the heat, literally

Then again, if I might want to try JBP, it will need some babying if it gets over 105 for too long, so maybe I just need to get something worked out for it
Where are you? Southwest US is a bit vague.
 

PherPhace

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Just came across this post. Did they servive this winter? I just wanted to mention that the die-back was likely caused by wiring in summer. Spruce hate being wired during the growing season. Fall is the best time to do it.
 
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Just came across this post. Did they servive this winter? I just wanted to mention that the die-back was likely caused by wiring in summer. Spruce hate being wired during the growing season. Fall is the best time to do it.
I threw mine out around September I think. It was almost all brown
 

Tidal Bonsai

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Just came across this post. Did they servive this winter? I just wanted to mention that the die-back was likely caused by wiring in summer. Spruce hate being wired during the growing season. Fall is the best time to do it.
I sold one, bought another two more from a nursery and kept the other one develop more. It’s still alive, and coming out of winter color.

It doesn’t seem to have the same dieback issue it had last year. The browning could have been from wiring in the summer, or from too much work at once.
 

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This spring all four trees are looking reasonably healthy even the two that had top pruning and rootwork. Advice from here would be greatly appreciated.
IMO...this is one of the only times wire should be applied to an entire branch, but not for the usual time and material wasting it's usually used for, but to get that s the hell out the way!

When you can't leave it on or fake it off....
Move it the hell out the way!
I followed Sorces advice and wired some of the branches on the bushier trees out of the way to allow light into the interior. The trees all continued to grow slowly throughout the year. Looking at them today buds are swelling normally on three trees but one has no obvious buds, just very vigorous growth. It’s almost as if bud burst has already happened. Looking at the bottom of the pot there is a thick white fungal growth. Is this an overgrowth of mychorrizae
 

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Tidal Bonsai

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I followed Sorces advice and wired some of the branches on the bushier trees out of the way to allow light into the interior. The trees all continued to grow slowly throughout the year. Looking at them today buds are swelling normally on three trees but one has no obvious buds, just very vigorous growth. It’s almost as if bud burst has already happened. Looking at the bottom of the pot there is a thick white fungal growth. Is this an overgrowth of mychorrizae
Did opening it to light make more interior buds pop? I was under the impression that pinching is more effective for getting interior buds to activate.
 
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Did opening it to light make more interior buds pop? I was under the impression that pinching is more effective for getting interior buds to activate.
Not sure it made more interior buds pop but it prevented smaller interior branches dying. It had already passed the time of year for pinching and the trees were still recovering from their initial repot.
 
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@sorce

Do I assume from your like the mychorriza is all still good even though it’s streaming out of the pot. I was worried it might be clogging up the whole root system. Would it be beneficial to get some into the other three spruces?
 

sorce

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mychorriza

Interesting photo!
Is it verified active throughout the pot?

Looks like mine after sitting on rotting wood, neither good nor bad in that scenario.

I like Mike but I don't know that I'd go as far as purposely moving whatever that is to another pot.

I do believe that that tree placed on the ground over winter will know better than one on a shelf when spring is really coming.

I want to split this up....
Bout the light and moving foliage..

Morce
 

sorce

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Did opening it to light make more interior buds pop? I was under the impression that pinching is more effective for getting interior buds to activate.

"Smart Tree Theory" is going to get a bit deep on this one.....

First of "pinching", which I assume is growing tips.

I have never observed a pinching or pruning, really anywhere on a needled branch, that activates anything but the next 1-3 buds. These are almost always already visible just a couple inches in.
I don't consider this "interior" buds, more like "proper nexts" which would be mostly exterior.

Even if removing that auxin tip gets a third or 4th bud back moving, once the tip two begin growing, it will probably suppress those further back again, because it simply doesn't need them, and the ones growing further out may merely shade them again, so they wait.

Not very effective at getting actual buds in the interior to break.

They need a larger removal of auxin, a better reason to bud, this removal needs to take place no further out than the next node after where you need buds.

So I wouldn't expect opening it up to light to make anything happen.
This is essentially just step one.

Enter deepening smart tree theory.

I always think of what a tree in nature is programmed to do when they "see" some of these actions we create.

A wired away branch on a bonsai, in nature could be "seen" as, snow laden branches, moved branches from fallen limbs or other debris, perhaps a hiker walking by and pinning a branch back to allow the other hikers by.

The point is, in any scenario, the tree knows this tension it feels is only temporary, snow melts, dead limbs rot or further move, and winds blow.

I do believe the tree becomes aware of the situation, it feels the sun on that newly exposed branch, but it also knows it's other foliage will soon snap back into position to fill that empty space.

I don't believe they will waste the energy sprouting buds in this scenario.

So exposing the branch is step one.
Step 2 must be removing the wired away branch so the tree knows that foliage can no longer fill that space.
Then maybe a year or 2 later make this cut.
20220325_085535~2.jpg

For me, it's key to leave on as much mass to cut off as possible. The more growing tips lopped at once, the greater signal to bud interiorly.

We should call this growth, "back bud sacrifice", which can be a subgroup of either "health sacrifice", or "design sacrifice", as it will serve both purposes.

I believe pinching or doing light exterior work, actually actively lessens the possibility of getting interior buds, because we are creating an excellently divided, thick and highly shading exterior working mass.

To reiterate another thing from somewhere else...

I believe Harry's teaching of many buds on the tip of a spruce indicating health is true, but incomplete.
This also means the tree is healthy specifically out there at the tips, so where we need interior budding, this is actually a bad sign.

I believe the earlier in the season you begin to see new growth form side buds, is more indicative of the tree wanting to grow interiorly, or "compact" itself if you will.

I believe there is a benefit to a tree growing large to spread seed.
I also believe they feel the benefit of being compact and not having to move resources over long distances.

Our pruning is meant to have a tree favoring the latter.

If we think how they think, we can send the right messages.

I am, for the sake of WTFN, why the eff not, beginning to imagine a tree has the capability to know everything that is happening to it, because I can't prove it can't.
I believe they "read" more than we think.

I reckon they "know" exactly where in space time each one of their cells resides.

Sorce
 
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Interesting photo!
Is it verified active throughout the pot?

Looks like mine after sitting on rotting wood, neither good nor bad in that scenario.

I like Mike but I don't know that I'd go as far as purposely moving whatever that is to another pot.

I do believe that that tree placed on the ground over winter will know better than one on a shelf when spring is really coming.

I want to split this up....
Bout the light and moving foliage..

Morce
No it’s not verified active throughout the pot. Don’t really want to disturb it unless you think it’s necessary. All the spruces were stood on my drive on paving bricks over the winter and this is the only tree that has shown both the top growth and the fungus. The attached pic shows the difference in foliage between three of the trees. The two on the left have plenty of bud but it’s a long way off coming out. The fungus tree on the right has no new budding and looks like it came out months ago.
 

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"Smart Tree Theory" is going to get a bit deep on this one.....

First of "pinching", which I assume is growing tips.

I have never observed a pinching or pruning, really anywhere on a needled branch, that activates anything but the next 1-3 buds. These are almost always already visible just a couple inches in.
I don't consider this "interior" buds, more like "proper nexts" which would be mostly exterior.

Even if removing that auxin tip gets a third or 4th bud back moving, once the tip two begin growing, it will probably suppress those further back again, because it simply doesn't need them, and the ones growing further out may merely shade them again, so they wait.

Not very effective at getting actual buds in the interior to break.

They need a larger removal of auxin, a better reason to bud, this removal needs to take place no further out than the next node after where you need buds.

So I wouldn't expect opening it up to light to make anything happen.
This is essentially just step one.

Enter deepening smart tree theory.

I always think of what a tree in nature is programmed to do when they "see" some of these actions we create.

A wired away branch on a bonsai, in nature could be "seen" as, snow laden branches, moved branches from fallen limbs or other debris, perhaps a hiker walking by and pinning a branch back to allow the other hikers by.

The point is, in any scenario, the tree knows this tension it feels is only temporary, snow melts, dead limbs rot or further move, and winds blow.

I do believe the tree becomes aware of the situation, it feels the sun on that newly exposed branch, but it also knows it's other foliage will soon snap back into position to fill that empty space.

I don't believe they will waste the energy sprouting buds in this scenario.

So exposing the branch is step one.
Step 2 must be removing the wired away branch so the tree knows that foliage can no longer fill that space.
Then maybe a year or 2 later make this cut.
View attachment 426964

For me, it's key to leave on as much mass to cut off as possible. The more growing tips lopped at once, the greater signal to bud interiorly.

We should call this growth, "back bud sacrifice", which can be a subgroup of either "health sacrifice", or "design sacrifice", as it will serve both purposes.

I believe pinching or doing light exterior work, actually actively lessens the possibility of getting interior buds, because we are creating an excellently divided, thick and highly shading exterior working mass.

To reiterate another thing from somewhere else...

I believe Harry's teaching of many buds on the tip of a spruce indicating health is true, but incomplete.
This also means the tree is healthy specifically out there at the tips, so where we need interior budding, this is actually a bad sign.

I believe the earlier in the season you begin to see new growth form side buds, is more indicative of the tree wanting to grow interiorly, or "compact" itself if you will.

I believe there is a benefit to a tree growing large to spread seed.
I also believe they feel the benefit of being compact and not having to move resources over long distances.

Our pruning is meant to have a tree favoring the latter.

If we think how they think, we can send the right messages.

I am, for the sake of WTFN, why the eff not, beginning to imagine a tree has the capability to know everything that is happening to it, because I can't prove it can't.
I believe they "read" more than we think.

I reckon they "know" exactly where in space time each one of their cells resides.

Sorce
What you say about the backbudding being triggered by large auxin removal makes a lot of sense. On a number of occasions I have removed foliage entirely from branches in readiness for jinning but haven’t got round to stripping the bark and masses of new shoots have sprouted all down the branch.
 
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