Anyone with sugar pines? (Pinus lambertiana)

oddirt

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Amen brother. Ever considered adding arbutus menziesii (pacific madrone) to your list? I've been experimenting the last 3 years
Thanks, it takes real nuttiness to even try this. I figure, at least get them to live. If not suitable for bonsai with leaf reduction experiments, then they can go in the landscape. I do have a number of madrones out in the landscape that are planted from my nearby Native Here Nursery, and there's a gorgeous one I can see across the canyon that is absolutely huge. The ones in the landscape may be collection-worthy in a few years. I have a one still in a nursery pot with some nice trunk movement that I'm experimenting with--how they handle root work, bonsai soil, leaf reduction, etc. I see this growing in both deep, rich soils and out of cracks in rocks, so the soil mix is pumice and lava-rich with 10% fir bark. So far so good. Leaves are huge and they don't go deciduous so leaf reduction will be the next experiment in a couple years. Let's start a thread on this and share our learnings!
 

BonsaiDawg

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Thanks, it takes real nuttiness to even try this. I figure, at least get them to live. If not suitable for bonsai with leaf reduction experiments, then they can go in the landscape. I do have a number of madrones out in the landscape that are planted from my nearby Native Here Nursery, and there's a gorgeous one I can see across the canyon that is absolutely huge. The ones in the landscape may be collection-worthy in a few years. I have a one still in a nursery pot with some nice trunk movement that I'm experimenting with--how they handle root work, bonsai soil, leaf reduction, etc. I see this growing in both deep, rich soils and out of cracks in rocks, so the soil mix is pumice and lava-rich with 10% fir bark. So far so good. Leaves are huge and they don't go deciduous so leaf reduction will be the next experiment in a couple years. Let's start a thread on this and share our learnings!
Great information on Madrone, very good to know, thanks for sharing. Yes, that's a good idea, will do.

I have two small, 3-year old nursery stock trees planted in plastic pots doing well here in Seattle plus one very small collected I've somehow managed to keep alive so far--the smallest one of four young madrones (12-15" in height) I collected on the kitsap peninsula two years ago--probably because I spent a ton of time digging wide to gather 80%+ of its roots, but who knows? Given my low success rate I have held off on attempting to collect anything larger.
 

oddirt

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However try to find a genuine unadulterated Pinus flexilis is not quite so easy. Usually some stupid cultivar:mad:!
I bought a few P flexilis saplings from LeBeau Bamboo last year. They were nice enough to let me know they are from native stands in Colorado, and not a cultivar.
 

Potawatomi13

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I haven't moved on in my collection to the ssp level but will keep an eye out. I imagine it'd be impossible to get collection permits because of their status. However, the Jepson Manual mentions some that were planted in Santa Barbara, and that did not establish well. Might be worth checking out after the shelter in place.
The ssp interest is because Torrey pine is considered the rarest USA pine from what I read and insularis is even rarer still. Great trees for Arboretum growing. Rarity is always good🧐. Actually the university contact said nothing about any permit suggesting just go and get it. Way more cones than seedlings that ever even grow.
 

Potawatomi13

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I bought a few P flexilis saplings from LeBeau Bamboo last year. They were nice enough to let me know they are from native stands in Colorado, and not a cultivar.
Wonder how they'll do in zone 9 ?🤞
 

oddirt

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Wonder how they'll do in zone 9 ?🤞
Hopefully (and theoretically) they should do well. There's a great resource called Calscape that indicates the Sunset Zones where California native plants thrive: https://www.calscape.org/Pinus-flexilis-(Limber-Pine)?srchcr=sc5e9a6cc360dd4. I'm in USDA 9b/10a and Sunset Zone 16. Wish we had similar tools for other states.

I say 'theoretically' because the Colorado seeds may be more locally adapted, but the even the ones growing in CA are located at much colder locations than where I am and reportedly do well in my zone. They made it through my very mild winter (lowest recorded temp on site was 37F for a hot minute; most temps were above 40F) and are pushing out new growth.

On the other hand, other cold-adapted species like Abies procera that I got last year are kinda floundering. Sometimes these plants respond more to photoperiod than temperature, so I'll watch and wait.
 

Potawatomi13

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Hopefully (and theoretically) they should do well. There's a great resource called Calscape that indicates the Sunset Zones where California native plants thrive: https://www.calscape.org/Pinus-flexilis-(Limber-Pine)?srchcr=sc5e9a6cc360dd4. I'm in USDA 9b/10a and Sunset Zone 16. Wish we had similar tools for other states.

I say 'theoretically' because the Colorado seeds may be more locally adapted, but the even the ones growing in CA are located at much colder locations than where I am and reportedly do well in my zone. They made it through my very mild winter (lowest recorded temp on site was 37F for a hot minute; most temps were above 40F) and are pushing out new growth.

On the other hand, other cold-adapted species like Abies procera that I got last year are kinda floundering. Sometimes these plants respond more to photoperiod than temperature, so I'll watch and wait.
Hope they all do well;).
 
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I’m a bit of a native plant bonsai nut, having made it a goal to develop one of every California native tree. It’s a goddamn big state with a lot of tree.
Wow.....I'm currently taking a plant diversity course where we use the jepson manual. Do you have a count or list of every 'native cali tree' ? I'd be curious to see how big that collection would be with even just one of every tree in it. Even if you just had one of every conifer that would be an awesome sight
 

oddirt

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Wow.....I'm currently taking a plant diversity course where we use the jepson manual. Do you have a count or list of every 'native cali tree' ? I'd be curious to see how big that collection would be with even just one of every tree in it. Even if you just had one of every conifer that would be an awesome sight
Cool, the JM is my go-to when I'm confused about a taxon or just want to explore. CalFlora.org has a great search tool called What Grows Here where you can filter for tree forms, native trees, and in various map areas including the entire state. It integrates nicely with the online Jepson eFlora database, as well as Calscape for checking nurseries for availability.

CalFlora shows 240 species (including subspecies) of trees in the state: https://www.calflora.org/entry/wgh....ee&fmt=photo&inma=t&y=37.8617&x=-120.4694&z=6. Since I've been focusing on species without going to the subspecies level, I count just over 90. There are just a handful I haven't been able to source through local nurseries or online seed and sapling sources.

There are also some bonsai-worthy species that would be classified as shrubs and not trees. A search for shrubbery (which sounds like something out of Monty Python's Holy Grail ["Bring me a shrubbery!"] shows 1162 species, of which 114 are also tree-like. That's a lot, to say the least!

Here's what ~80 species as saplings and seedlings look like, conifers first (the yellow coloring is an artifact of the lighting) then the deciduous and broad-leaved (which are separated for protection from deer). Hopefully I'll live long enough to see them resemble their older versions.

IMG_3275 - Copy.jpg

IMG_3274 - Copy.jpg
There are a few large junipers that don't appear in these images.

I'll start some separate species-specific threads when these get interesting enough to show progression images. But first, here's a sincere apology to the OP @bonsainut with an actual image of a sugar pine sapling from sequoiatrees.com pushing out buds. :)
IMG_3273.jpg
 

Potawatomi13

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Funny; without the new growth looks just like a baby Douglas Fir;). Do you have acreage for all these little ones to grow?
 
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Cool, the JM is my go-to when I'm confused about a taxon or just want to explore. CalFlora.org has a great search tool called What Grows Here where you can filter for tree forms, native trees, and in various map areas including the entire state. It integrates nicely with the online Jepson eFlora database, as well as Calscape for checking nurseries for availability.

CalFlora shows 240 species (including subspecies) of trees in the state: https://www.calflora.org/entry/wgh....ee&fmt=photo&inma=t&y=37.8617&x=-120.4694&z=6. Since I've been focusing on species without going to the subspecies level, I count just over 90. There are just a handful I haven't been able to source through local nurseries or online seed and sapling sources.

There are also some bonsai-worthy species that would be classified as shrubs and not trees. A search for shrubbery (which sounds like something out of Monty Python's Holy Grail ["Bring me a shrubbery!"] shows 1162 species, of which 114 are also tree-like. That's a lot, to say the least!

Here's what ~80 species as saplings and seedlings look like, conifers first (the yellow coloring is an artifact of the lighting) then the deciduous and broad-leaved (which are separated for protection from deer). Hopefully I'll live long enough to see them resemble their older versions.

View attachment 297427

View attachment 297426
There are a few large junipers that don't appear in these images.

I'll start some separate species-specific threads when these get interesting enough to show progression images. But first, here's a sincere apology to the OP @bonsainut with an actual image of a sugar pine sapling from sequoiatrees.com pushing out buds. :)
View attachment 297428
In the first photo, Can you identify the small bluish pine seedlings on the bottom of the screen just left of center? And also in the back just behind the circular wood planter.


And since u mentioned the OP and keeping to topic. I promise as soon as I get home I will take pictures of.my little collected sugar pine saplings and pos tnn them
 
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As promised I have taken pics of the collected sugar pines saplings. Not that these are the most exciting specimens ever but at least it is on topic. At least I sure think they are sugar pines since that is the only 5 needle pine known to grow in the area I found them. I'm still a bit confused how people seem to be moderately concerned about their ability to reduce the needle length, as these are some of the shortest needles I have ever seen in the wild.
 

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oddirt

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Funny; without the new growth looks just like a baby Douglas Fir;). Do you have acreage for all these little ones to grow?
If only! Just one acre. If you’re starting an arboretum / tree orphanage then I may have to send some your way. Too many mouths to feed.

In the first photo, Can you identify the small bluish pine seedlings on the bottom of the screen just left of center? And also in the back just behind the circular wood planter.
Sure thing. The seedlings are single needle pinyon, Pinus monophylla. One of my faves for its short leaves, beautiful color and the fact that it’s the world’s only pine with one needle per bundle. Also it’s the species in my profile pic. They don’t grow quickly and I haven’t seen cultivate them as bonsai but there are a couple posts on B’nut. After three years their “trunks” are 1/2 the diameter of a pencil, LOL. But beautiful to watch in their growth. I’m banking on living a long time to see these become decent bonsai! Not sure if they lose the blue color as they get older, as the ones I’ve seen in the eastern Sierras have dark green leaves.

The other one is a cultivar of subalpine fir, Abies lasiocarpa ‘Glacier’. Like many cultivars, it’s a graft so I hope to air layer it when it’s strong and healthy. The blue color is also really stunning. Good eye!

Also could u please identify this one?
Those are big leaf maple, Acer macrophyllum. There are a few posts by others on this species. They don’t have the dainty leaves of Japanese maples but I am finding the leaves do reduce despite their name. They add wood quickly too and have short internodes early in the growth season. So they have bonsai potential.
 

oddirt

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As promised I have taken pics of the collected sugar pines saplings. Not that these are the most exciting specimens ever but at least it is on topic.
Thanks for sharing these. How long have you had them since collection? Any plans to try needle reduction techniques or to coax back budding?
 

Potawatomi13

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"Funny; without the new growth looks just like a baby Douglas Fir;). Do you have acreage for all these little ones to grow?" "
If only! Just one acre. If you’re starting an arboretum / tree orphanage then I may have to send some your way. Too many mouths to feed.

Really got to get to land hunting! Procrastination:rolleyes:R US!
 

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When I hear Bill Pine I think of Pinus sabiniana, which grow in the lower foothills all the way down to just above the valley floor. Frankly, the only pine I’ve met that I don’t like. Huge ugly-colored needles (gray-blue-white), weird trunk growth, ugly cones. I’m sure somebody loves them, but not me. The do have large edible nuts so I suppose if you are into eating pine nuts it might be a good species. Native Americans are them a lot.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Bill pine?

It is best, with an international forum, to get comfortable using the botanical names, so that when one hears or reads, Pinus lambertina, one will immediately recognize the name, and knows what species we are talking about.

Common names are confusing because what species they refer to changes with geography and language. The botanical name does not change.
 
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Thanks for sharing these. How long have you had them since collection? Any plans to try needle reduction techniques or to coax back budding?
I have had them less than a year, so they are just sitting with the rest of the "don't touch group".

I learned the hard way I gotta leave collected trees alone much past the point where I'm sure they are going to survive the collection. These are just young ones, and can probably tolerate more than others but I'm still just watching and watering for a while
 

Punky

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Bill pine?

It is best, with an international forum, to get comfortable using the botanical names, so that when one hears or reads, Pinus lambertina, one will immediately recognize the name, and knows what species we are talking about.

Common names are confusing because what species they refer to changes with geography and language. The botanical name does not change.
Thanks, Leo. I meant to type Bull Pine which was mentioned earlier as a common name for both P. lambertiana and P. ponderosa, and I just wanted to point out that I associate that common name with P. sabiniana. I agree scientific names are more accurate.
 
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