Approach grafting a tip

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I found that scots pines can bud profusely on older wood, but some of them just don't want to. The ones I get from the wild seem to be prone to back bud heavily.
You could try to force them, but it seems cultivar specific (watererii and norwegian types backbud better than JBP) and health specific too. There are no guarantees.

I got my timing wrong this year for doing scion grafting on pines, and it was my first try ever. Three of them held up for a couple months but they seem to be dead now.
It seems to be easier than grafting junipers, which I have done successfully in the past. Pine wood is way softer.
One piece of advice I wish I had, was to not wrap them too tight with wire. The flap needs to close, but the wire shouldn't bite in.
Smaller scions are better, and scots pines reduce their candle and needle size a whole lot if you don't feed them in spring.

 

[sorce]

It's those pines that backbud like crazy, just out of a will to live, which is why I can't subscribe to the "they won't backbud" idea.

I agree we may never be able to make it happen, but I like to organize thoughts, vocals, more precise than that.

It is quite, focusing on what is possible, realizing it into existence.

Quite honestly, I think we naturally create our own existence, but society puts blockers up that makes it hard for us to do so.

I feel like Bonsai has been influenced by Western Society in the same manner.

50/50 pick whichever cuz its a 50% chance regardless.

It's the results of the actions that, of we "debate", or "guide or concerns towards", I think we'll better be able to help each other learn, and make the real correct move.

Truth truth....

I can't see enough of the tree to know anything!

I'll bet any number of people could come up with perfect solutions, why are we not able to get to that point?

Bad pics! Lol!

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

I’m really not sure why there is always a debate on the most elementary stuff.

Not wanting to "debate the most elementary stuff". I do however want to see what is and what is not possible. From the responses here I see conflicting opinions on whether or not scots will backbud on older branches. I have only little experience with pines, having killed a few and the one surviving I sold after a few years. But the one thing I never had a problem with was the budding (Repotting was). All scots pine I have had in my yard have all backbudded without hesitation, also on old branches. It seemed to be a matter of a strong growing season previous, with a strong cut-back nearing the end of that season.

Could it be partially climatic? Wires_guy_wires and I are in an area with loads of fall and winter rain. Maybe that allows for easier bud development n older branches?
And all of them were non-grafted, 'wild' versions.

In any case, the pine I mentioned before is now pushing needles a little. Next year should be a strong growing year if I do not mess up. 2022 will tell to what extent I get backbudding on older branches. I know I need them on 5 year old wood. But.. Will also try my hands at some grafts. Want to get better at it so a little bit of practice is never a waste.

 

[Nishant]

As I mentioned, I personally would not approach graft. If you feel you have to do it, I would do it in early spring, as Frank suggested. Second choice for approach grafting would be in fall after the needles harden off, but you’ll need to protect it over the winter and count on a lower success rate.

- S

I am attaching a few more closer pictures before I request for a more informed advise from all. About myself, I would say that I want to take the least risky approach. The tree as it is, looks nice to me but am very keen to get folliage to start from branches a little further from the central trunk. The central trunk is really full of character and want to make good use of it.

I got this tree three years back from its keeper who said he had raised the tree from a seedling and was 30 years old.

 

[markyscott]

Not wanting to "debate the most elementary stuff".

As long as you don’t want to argue about how to count growth years on a single flush pine with an obvious number of nodes to count, I’m happy to continue the discussion.

From the responses here I see conflicting opinions on whether or not scots will backbud on older branches.

It‘s possible, but much less likely, that you’ll get back buds on old wood. How much less likely is species dependent and I’m not that familiar with Scots. If this was a black pine and your goal was to get backbuds under 8 year old bark, I‘d say forget about it. But it’s a species that I’m much less familiar with, so If someone who grows them regularly says it’s possible but unreliable, then give it a go. But having rehabbed several old and neglected pines, I would still recommend that you learn to graft if that is your goal.

S

 

[markyscott]

I want to take the least risky approach.

The only risk in grafting is that they won’t take and you’ll have to try it again. But thanks for posting the pictures - it gives me a better appreciate of what’s going on. It looks like you have some good apical growth, but the lower branches look pretty weak. So your immediate goal is to restore health. Forget about grafting and backbudding for now and just focus on that. It looks like it’s planted in potting soil - I’d start with a light pruning of the apical growth now (anywhere you see three shoots, thin to two) and a repot next spring. If you’ve never repotted a pine before, you might want to get some help doing from an experienced person from your area in doing it.

- S

 

[Nishant]

Thanks Mark for reply. The risk that I mentioned was in context of chopping branches in anticipation of back-bud. If that does not happen, I will have lost a good looking tree.

The growth on top is good and healthy. As for last three years, I have trimmed the buds on top to encourage the growth on lower branches. Whenever I cut off the all the buds and a little below, I do get a buds just where the cut is. I have never got new bud further down.

I get losts of cones every year on this tree. So last year it looked like this. Does that mean something at all? Good or Bad, either way.

I have pulled down the branches so the folliage in previous pictures look at thinned out.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks Mark for reply. The risk that I mentioned was in context of chopping branches in anticipation of back-bud. If that does not happen, I will have lost a good looking tree.

The growth on top is good and healthy. As for last three years, I have trimmed the buds on top to encourage the growth on lower branches. Whenever I cut off the all the buds and a little below, I do get a buds just where the cut is. I have never got new bud further down.

I get losts of cones every year on this tree. So last year it looked like this. Does that mean something at all? Good or Bad, either way.

I have pulled down the branches so the folliage in previous pictures look at thinned out.

Low res pic, but, at a glance, it looked stronger last year. You can’t chop pine branches below foliage to get a back bud. You have a nice trunk. Although the branches need to be rebuilt and I think you’ll likely have to graft eventually, right now just focus on restoring the health and vigor of the tree. On the upper 1/3 of the tree, everywhere you see three branches coming from a node, thin to two. Don’t do anything else other than focusing on watering - don’t let it get too wet. Let it dry out a bit between waterings. Then find a mentor in your area to help you repot. Rebuilding branches is down the road.

- Scott

 

[sorce]

Thanks for the good pics.

Near makes me feel you should just get to grafting on the trunk itself.

But here's my thing ...

There MUST be a great amount of folaige removed to get backbudding. The balance is keeping enough so the tree remains healthy.

This is why Bonsai Artists say things "don't backbud". They haven't achieved this balance. I don't care who you are, myself included, humans are to hasty to easily achieve this balance.

I feel like this tree has...maybe had according to that last pic, the energy to make these backbuds.

Roughly...

Red won't get ya anything.
Yellow might.
Green Should.

And before green is where I'm seeing you need buds at. No farther out. Everything farther out is sacrificial to me.

The risk that I mentioned was in context of chopping branches in anticipation of back-bud. If that does not happen, I will have lost a good looking tree.

If you achieve this balance...
You won't have lost a good tree, you will just have to wait for it to be healthy enough to graft.

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

@Nishant - If you’d like more of my advice, send me a PM. I‘m not going to get into a debate here. If you want to learn how to rehab a pine, I have a number of threads on this site documenting how exactly to go from raw stock to good tree in carefully documented, step-by-step progressions that have gone on for many years. The first thing I always do is to address any health issues the tree has. I encourage you to do the same and first learn how to grow pines and to keep them healthy. In my opinion, it’s pretty irresponsible for people with very little experience in growing pines to suggest to beginners that they carry out a hard cut back on a weak tree with declining vigor that is potted in poor soil.

- S

 

[PiñonJ]

​

• Higher success rate
• Only approach for root grafting

• Bigger, more noticeable scar
• Have to grow long shoots to position them
• Less flexibility to position them accurately
• More difficult to place them in tight space

Detached scion grafting​

• Less visible scarring
• Easier to carry out a lot of them
• Easier to position them accurately
• Easier to work in tight spaces close to the trunk

• Lower success rate

@markyscott, have you done much approach grafting on pines? Just wondering how successful it’s been, because my teacher favors scion grafts on pines, largely because his success rate in pines specifically is higher than with approach grafts. He says the callus formation tends to push them apart. We did a lot of scion grafts at a class last fall - mostly Scotts, or JBP onto Ponderosa. Checking on them in January, the success rate was quite high.
BTW, are you a Tull fan?

 

[Nishant]

@Nishant - If you’d like more of my advice, send me a PM. I‘m not going to get into a debate here. If you want to learn how to rehab a pine, I have a number of threads on this site documenting how exactly to go from raw stock to good tree in carefully documented, step-by-step progressions that have gone on for many years. The first thing I always do is to address any health issues the tree has. I encourage you to do the same and first learn how to grow pines and to keep them healthy. In my opinion, it’s pretty irresponsible for people with very little experience in growing pines to suggest to beginners that they carry out a hard cut back on a weak tree with declining vigor that is potted in poor soil.

- S

Thanks Mark, I will send you PMs.

 

[markyscott]

@markyscott, have you done much approach grafting on pines? Just wondering how successful it’s been, because my teacher favors scion grafts on pines, largely because his success rate in pines specifically is higher than with approach grafts. He says the callus formation tends to push them apart. We did a lot of scion grafts at a class last fall - mostly Scotts, or JBP onto Ponderosa. Checking on them in January, the success rate was quite high.
BTW, are you a Tull fan?

I’ve done a couple of approach grafts on branches. One was successful and one wasn’t. Not enough to tell you if my success rate is better or worse. I almost always do scion grafting on branches. I do them all the time - probably 25 this season. Approach grafting is the only technique for doing root grafts. I’ve did three at the beginning of the season. Two are still living.

And yes - I like JT. I thought this cover in particular was appropriate for the forum. You’re the first to ask, lol.

S

 

[leatherback]

I almost always do scion grafting on branches. I do them all the time - probably 25 this season.

Any specific time of the year?

 

[markyscott]

Any specific time of the year?

I did them in late January. Here in Houston, that’s early spring.

S

 

[PiñonJ]

Any specific time of the year?

In your climate, you might want to do it in fall and give them winter protection.

 

[leatherback]

No coincidences in life!?

Yesterday we had a members-garden-visit by my bonsaiclub. The owner of the garden is known for his ability to work pines from rough wild stock into decent prebonsai. He did a little demo on chasing foliage on Scots pine as part of the visit.

As @markyscott indicated, I do not have loads of experience, so this is second hand information. However, I think what I have seen and what was told rings true, so I am sharing it anyway. Sorry if this is offending people. Sorry, not trying to be argumentative. Markyscott, you know I Have deep respect for your skills and experience. However, I think it is good to keep an open mind on all the options out there and what I see in gardens around me, indicates that under certain conditions scots can and will backbud quite well.

The tree he showed had already had 1 foot of branches cut off when dug. And since then (2 years ago) he had removed another 2 years worth of branching. Now he estimates he is almost there. One or two more years and then he expects the foliage to be in the right spot to start considering styling. Backbudding on 5-6 year old wood is no problem in his yard he indicated. But key: Timing of pruning, and super health. So he lets the pines run for a bit until the foliage starts to turn into the summer colour. Then he prunes hard. Result, by the end of summer buds on branches from the 1-2 years before the cut areas. Of course, ensuring enough foliage remains on each branch to keep it alive.

In his yard he has several pines that are in the styling stage, clearly with very old branches removed. I have not seen any grafts, nor have I heard him mention any. Although I agree that knowing how to graft, and grafting is a sure way of getting foliage where you need it, for those who cannot graft or prefer to wait it out, I think there is a good possibility that it works too. And yes, I intent to do both as I do want to get experienced in grafting.

I wonder whether this is something with the climate. As indicated before: I always hear Scots do reasonably well when it comes to backbudding. (For pines). Which is why I took a chance on my earlier mentioned pine.

Crotches like these produce buds for him too:




This is of course a youngish branch, but more to show what he leaves on: These branches popped last year after the prune, and this year they grew well, so he cut back to this aiming for buds further down. He estimated 4 years to get buds back to near the trunk using his methods. The trees he normally works on come from a growers field in full sun, and are only some 15 years old, so will be more vital and this stronger backbudders in the first years than old yamadori.

 

[markyscott]

No coincidences in life!?

Yesterday we had a members-garden-visit by my bonsaiclub. The owner of the garden is known for his ability to work pines from rough wild stock into decent prebonsai. He did a little demo on chasing foliage on Scots pine as part of the visit.

As @markyscott indicated, I do not have loads of experience, so this is second hand information. However, I think what I have seen and what was told rings true, so I am sharing it anyway. Sorry if this is offending people. Sorry, not trying to be argumentative. Markyscott, you know I Have deep respect for your skills and experience. However, I think it is good to keep an open mind on all the options out there and what I see in gardens around me, indicates that under certain conditions scots can and will backbud quite well.

The tree he showed had already had 1 foot of branches cut off when dug. And since then (2 years ago) he had removed another 2 years worth of branching. Now he estimates he is almost there. One or two more years and then he expects the foliage to be in the right spot to start considering styling. Backbudding on 5-6 year old wood is no problem in his yard he indicated. But key: Timing of pruning, and super health. So he lets the pines run for a bit until the foliage starts to turn into the summer colour. Then he prunes hard. Result, by the end of summer buds on branches from the 1-2 years before the cut areas. Of course, ensuring enough foliage remains on each branch to keep it alive.

In his yard he has several pines that are in the styling stage, clearly with very old branches removed. I have not seen any grafts, nor have I heard him mention any. Although I agree that knowing how to graft, and grafting is a sure way of getting foliage where you need it, for those who cannot graft or prefer to wait it out, I think there is a good possibility that it works too. And yes, I intent to do both as I do want to get experienced in grafting.

I wonder whether this is something with the climate. As indicated before: I always hear Scots do reasonably well when it comes to backbudding. (For pines). Which is why I took a chance on my earlier mentioned pine.

Crotches like these produce buds for him too:
View attachment 310386

View attachment 310385

This is of course a youngish branch, but more to show what he leaves on: These branches popped last year after the prune, and this year they grew well, so he cut back to this aiming for buds further down. He estimated 4 years to get buds back to near the trunk using his methods. The trees he normally works on come from a growers field in full sun, and are only some 15 years old, so will be more vital and this stronger backbudders in the first years than old yamadori.
View attachment 310387

Thanks - I’m glad you posted. I don’t take issue with anything he said. I especially agree that both backbudding and grafting success depend on the health of the tree. Although I stand by my statement that it’s easier to get backbudding on younger wood than older, it looks like he had better results than I would expect with a black pine.

S

 

[sorce]

Thanks Mark, I will send you PMs.

I was trying to leave this alone, but I can't.

My objective is, and has been, to get you to weigh the differences out in your own garden. Not to make any decision yet.

Scott's objective, as guided by animosity towards me (cuz Boon must have made a DVD on it), is to get you to take action. He doesn't even grow these trees.

The "debate", has been of which technique to use on your particular tree. Which, IMO we still don't have enough information to decide.

Anyway, I am certainly no Scots Genius. Ahem.

But I wouldn't ask Vance Wood for help with Azalea.

Sorce

 

[Nishant]

All the posts have been quite useful to me. After reading Leatherbacks post and also as advised by others, as soon as I get one successful graft I will do hard pruning.

If I get back buds that will be bonus and I will not have any risk. After hard pruning I hope the grafted scion will get lots of feed from root as well.