Are collected big trees still considered bonsai ?

[Sae Nguyen]

I was browsing a juniper digging thread and couldn't help wondering if huge collected trees in boxes the size of caskets is still considered bonsai.

Nothing wrong with collecting plants of any size, but I've seen huge junipers in bonsai back yards that just don't look like anything but a tree in a box.

Thoughts?

 

[Colorado]

“Are collected big trees still considered bonsai?”

Oh yeah! The wooden boxes are typically just for the first few years after collection, for recovery. Then the tree goes into a bonsai pot.

 

[BobbyLane]

raw material, collected material, pre bonsai, potential bonsai material, raw stock etc all good

 

[rockm]

I was browsing a juniper digging thread and couldn't help wondering if huge collected trees in boxes the size of caskets is still considered bonsai.

Nothing wrong with collecting plants of any size, but I've seen huge junipers in bonsai back yards that just don't look like anything but a tree in a box.

Thoughts?

I think you're talking about unworked collected stock trees? Don't know if you're new to bonsai, but "real" bonsai (other than the stuff sold on the roadside or Home Depot) tend to be huge by those standards. Some are REALLY big, some not. Recently collected trees (dug up from the mountains, landscapes, etc.) need larger training containers to handle their large root masses. Those larger root balls are reduced to accommodate a small (er) bonsai pot when the collected tree recovers from begin dug up.

This tree is a bald cypress collected in La. by Guy Guidry (pictured--I stole the photo from another thread here). the larger the trunk and living sections of the collected trees, generally the larger the root mass needed to support it.

 

[AcerAddict]

Wigert's Bonsai down in SW FL works with some absolutely massive collected trees that are still considered bonsai. Here's a couple examples from their Facebook page.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I've seen huge junipers in bonsai back yards that just don't look like anything but a tree in a box.

A huge tree in a box is just a huge tree in a box... just like an oil painting before the application of skill is just a bunch of paints, brushes, and a canvas.

Bonsai is an art form. You can have huge art, or tiny art. But at the end of the day, you are seeking to apply skill and design to create something that is appreciated for its beauty and emotional power. Bigger isn't always better and a big bonsai isn't necessarily more valuable than a smaller one. It all depends on the quality of the art. Size, in and of itself, doesn't matter.

After a while, I believe the size of the tree starts to work against you if it is too large. The cost of maintaining, potting, repotting, styling and moving those trees starts to become prohibitive, and can place them outside of the realm of most people. You can still have a poor bonsai even if it is large... but it would make me cry if the cheapest pot I could find for my poor bonsai cost $3000 and required four people to move

 

[Dav4]

Ummm, these collected trees that require large, unique "coffin-like" boxes aren't initially considered bonsai... but they tend to make good bonsai . This photo was lifted from Leebonsai.com
and here is a link about "The Coffin Tree"... http://www.leebonsai.com/category/tree-progression/. World class material.

 

[DavidBoren]

Aren't there examples of full-sized trees in gigantic "pots" that are appreciated as bonsai?

I seem to remember such a Red Pine in Japan(?) with a courtyard of raked sand surrounding it. Or that Ficus forest in Italy(?) that sits under an arched/dome skylight.

It's a tree in a tray... that's bonsai, right? There are no size limitations built into the definition. Is it a tree? And is it in a tray? If yes to both, then it's bonsai... regardless of the size of either the tree or the tray.

 

[rockm]

Aren't there examples of full-sized trees in gigantic "pots" that are appreciated as bonsai?

I seem to remember such a Red Pine in Japan(?) with a courtyard of raked sand surrounding it. Or that Ficus forest in Italy(?) that sits under an arched/dome skylight.

It's a tree in a tray... that's bonsai, right? There are no size limitations built into the definition. Is it a tree? And is it in a tray? If yes to both, then it's bonsai... regardless of the size of either the tree or the tray.

Nope, just because a big tree is in a pot, doesn't automatically make it a bonsai. There has to be some form of training the tree in the pot with an eye to a composition.

Styled large trees in the ground are called "Niwaki" in Japan. They use very similar training techniques, but are not potted.

 

[Sae Nguyen]

There has to be some form of training the tree in the pot with an eye to a composition.

That's what made me post the question.
Different strokes....

 

[rockm]

That's what made me post the question.
Different strokes....

You question is a bit unclear. Are the boxes in the backyards of bonsai people, or just in general?

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Awesome name!

 

[MichaelS]

Is this one too big for my little tree?

 

[Emeraldtarpon]

Is this one too big for my little tree?
View attachment 453729

That's actually a 6 inch pot...the guy owns a shrink ray.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Origin of Bonsai: China were Yamadori collected, potted with little training originally. Some very big Dai, Omono size trees. If past information seen is correct. Seems original origin still applies except to Bonsai snobs/elitists.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Seems original origin still applies except to Bonsai snobs/elitists.

I don't think calling bonsai an art form is "snobbery". Dig up all the trees you want, do nothing to them, and enjoy them. I call that "container landscaping" personally, and have a bunch of container plants or plantings that I enjoy... but I don't consider bonsai. In fact, I just pulled a nice red maple out of the woods behind my house. It isn't a bonsai... yet.

@michaelj in front of a bonsai "pot" the size of a bathtub. It has outlasted its shipping crate, LOL.



However... it is a personal opinion. Here's a couple of "natural" bonsai that I have seen over the years that were collected and left untouched (with the exception of minor pruning). Are they "better" because they have never been styled? Would they look better with styling? The talent of the people who collected and own those trees is unquestionable. I don't think it is snobbery to say that I look at them and think they are one styling away from being amazing trees... almost like a great bonsai that was let grow outside of its design. But again, it's my opinion.

 

[Gabler]

Nope, just because a big tree is in a pot, doesn't automatically make it a bonsai. There has to be some form of training the tree in the pot with an eye to a composition.

Styled large trees in the ground are called "Niwaki" in Japan. They use very similar training techniques, but are not potted.

Origin of Bonsai: China were Yamadori collected, potted with little training originally. Some very big Dai, Omono size trees. If past information seen is correct. Seems original origin still applies except to Bonsai snobs/elitists.

I can’t tell how much this is a semantic disagreement and how much it’s a judgment as to the value different kinds of plant material.

 

[BrightsideB]

When I read about the origins of bonsai I remember it defining plant in pot. And the process of putting wild plants in pots evolved into an art. I do blacksmithing but I don’t do it in the sense that is most commonly understood. So many people either think knives, horseshoes, or tools. But I specifically only do art. So I call myself a blacksmith artist. I forge steel in a creative and artistic way. So I am still a blacksmith. And blacksmithing is what I did. I see something very similar with bonsai. The methods have evolved yet there are still some that will call you a metal artist because you use a welder yet that stigma has been less over time. Such as kimura using power tools. So all of a sudden people said it was no longer bonsai. I understand and it’s not snobbish. it’s breaking traditional rules and has to be dealt with within the community. But that is only natural over time. I see bonsai as very similar. It’s entirely subjective and sorts itself out within the collective through time with how good it defines the term. There is a reason trees win awards and prestige as well as simple likes on a forum. It’s interesting to me, I like subjects like this. Ones with a big grey area to discuss.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It’s interesting to me, I like subjects like this. Ones with a big grey area to discuss.

So would you consider a raw bar of steel to be smithing art?

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Finger painting is still an art, just a less appreciated art. I'm sure there are some finger painted masterpieces out there too but just not my cup of tea. Different strokes for different folks.