Are Satsuki more resilient, hardy, forgiving, tougher, SoCal tolerant than Kurume Azaleas?

[エドガー]

I bought 9 "starter" Kurume Hino-Crimson azaleas in June 2018. Received them in small 3" pots, and I quickly slip-potted them into 1gal nursery pots (I didn't disturb the root mass). I also pruned them during the slip-potting (just shortened the long/leggy branches to 2-3 lobes and also reduced any branch-whorls into just 1 pair). Maybe it was much too early to prune them and I should've let them grow and recover first?

After a few months, I noticed some of them were looking unhealthy, dying browning leaves and drying out. I was also watering them every day (another n00b mistake perhaps ..I stopped daily-watering since last year from this mistake). I also read they don't like "wet feet"... So, I wanted to add more aggregate/pumice into the soil, because I thought they just might've needed more drainage. So, I re-slip-potted them yet again into bigger 3gal nursery pots (with better draining soil) around Fall.

Another n00b mistake is that I left them all summer of 2018 in the west-side of the house, the hottest area with no afternoon shade at all (last summer was hot & dry too... many days over 100º). Many were looking very unhealthy and brown by fall and winter... so, I just waited until spring came around and crossed my fingers... and, only 3 survived/grew in spring 2019... the other 6 were toast dry.

These also came from the north-east coast of the US (Mass or tri-state area iirc.).. so maybe they needed even more care and time to get used to SoCal.
(the 3 that survived are doing very well this year though... deep green leaves and lots of new growth)


I love azaleas... so, I just bought 3 more yesterday from House of Bonsai. But, this time, Satsuki azaleas (3 different flower varieties). Owner said they are better than Kurume and Kurume are more sensitive to fungal diseases and such (idk if that's true... hence, this post). I hope they are truly more forgiving..because I wanna give azaleas another shot.
I have a little more confidence they will do well/better though... as these are already from and raised in SoCal.

Anyways... Are Satsuki more resilient, hardy, forgiving, tougher and SoCal tolerant than Kurume?

Also, I'm honestly scared/hesitant to prune my azaleas now, lol (I'm scared I might kill them again, lol). I am usually super bold when pruning my other plants and garden trees... but, not azaleas anymore (it's the only plant I have that I'm very wary of pruning). I hope it's safe to prune them. Please give me confidence that it's alright to prune them (heavily?).

 

[shinmai]

Go to YouTube and look at some of John Geanangel’s videos, and you’ll see how hard you can prune azaleas. Look particularly at one entitled ‘developing azaleas by drastic pruning’. You can cut them to stumps and they’ll bounce back in a couple of weeks with lots of new growth.
I am not aware of any difference in raising kurume versus satsuki. If anything satsuki might be a little more forgiving. Absent insects and fungus [and squirrels, which are the spawn of Satan], the vast majority of azalea problems are related to the roots, which means drainage, over/under watering, and temperature. The reason you will see many azaleas in hot areas in deeper pots is to protect the roots from too much heat. Azaleas across the board are understory plants—they need part shade and filtered sun to thrive. Direct sunlight in a hot area is too much for them, and their leaves burn easily from water droplets in direct sun. Even in shade, if you get temps above 80 you might want to elevate the pots on something to allow air circulation under the pot, rather than having them sit on a porch wall, etc., that can get really hot.
When I get a new azalea, I reduce the root mass [in the nursery pot] to fit the grow pot it’s going into, so that I have about 1.5 finger-widths on all sides. All of mine, at least thirty, are in straight kanuma.

 

[bunjin]

Sorry that I did not see this post earlier. After many years of growing azaleas as bonsai, I think that Kurumes are best suited to the garden, at least in our climate. They are very difficult to style because I think they really want to be in the shape of a tumbleweed - they incessantly want to bud upwards. Hino Crimson is a wonderful garden plant. This year(2020), all of my Kurumes have a fungus, maybe because of climate change. Not sure all of the ones in pots will survive. I actually did some H.C. cuttings this spring, and they are very iffy. Kurumes in my garden have been especially vulnerable to spider mites. They do bloom in spectacular form much earlier, which is not so important for bonsai, but is a real benefit in the garden. Hopefully you now have some Satsuki that are doing well.

 

[エドガー]

Sorry that I did not see this post earlier. After many years of growing azaleas as bonsai, I think that Kurumes are best suited to the garden, at least in our climate. They are very difficult to style because I think they really want to be in the shape of a tumbleweed - they incessantly want to bud upwards. Hino Crimson is a wonderful garden plant. This year(2020), all of my Kurumes have a fungus, maybe because of climate change. Not sure all of the ones in pots will survive. I actually did some H.C. cuttings this spring, and they are very iffy. Kurumes in my garden have been especially vulnerable to spider mites. They do bloom in spectacular form much earlier, which is not so important for bonsai, but is a real benefit in the garden. Hopefully you now have some Satsuki that are doing well.

Thanks for your reply and info. Yes, I did notice kurume growth is a bit leggy, long and straight (even after clip&grow trimming to a 1st node or trimming to bifurcation); it likes to be dome, round and long like a tumbleweed.

Yeah... cuttings are difficult. I rooted a bunch earlier this year (both kurume HC and various satsuki)... but all kurume died after removing from greenhouse to acclimate, while the satsuki cuttings were fine to acclimation to outside world (too bad rats decimated all my satsuki cuttings though).
A rat also recently ate 1 of my more older/mature kurume recently (I think I made a post about it). Then, a rat also ate 1 of my newer more older/mature satsuki too.

I am trying a 3rd time with HC cuttings since last June... most seem to be doing fine in the greenhouse so far. I will remove them to acclimate in November (which is the true test if they survive in the outside world)... I am thinking they might die as well, after removing from greenhouse. Or, rats might eat them.

I agree, they look wonderful in the garden and their tiny, bright red, early-spring flowers are super nice.

My new satsuki are doing good.. besides the 1 that got eaten by rats.

Thinking of just giving up on azaleas and J maples all together, mainly because of rats (and also, they're obviously difficult in dry & hot SoCal)... and just sticking with tougher conifers and tropicals.
Rats leave my conifers and tropicals alone (knock on wood), and they also do great in this dry, hot climate.
I actually got 11 sago palm pups 1 week ago... they are def rat and rabbit proof with their super sharp thorns and armor-like bark, haha.

 

[エドガー]

Are camellias more hardy, tolerant, tougher in general than azaleas in dry, arid climate and zone 10b?
Or, are satsuki/kurume azaleas and camellias pretty similar in regards to dry/hot climate tolerance?

I’ve never had any camellias yet/before... just wondering if they’d be a better substitute for me than azaleas...for dry, hot, arid, SoCal 10b.

 

[shinmai]

I would not eliminate azaleas as a possibility. Hot and dry can both be accommodated and overcome. I don’t imagine there’s much difference in average high temps between 10b and 9b [Sacramento]. Yukon Maruyama has a rather spectacular Satsuki nursery there.

 

[Ruddigger]

I haven’t had any problems with any type of azaleas in my garden here in the inland empire (zone 10a.) Besides needing a ton of water and a little shade they do pretty well here.

 

[Harunobu]

The best azaleas for zone 10 are Belgian indica and Hirado azalea (they are related). I heard that many satsuki do well, but that some don't. Humidity can be key. If it is really dry and hot, they struggle or they go into a summer dormancy? The Encore azaleas are also said to be more heat tolerant. Not sure if satsuki or kurume do better in the heat. Southern Japan is zone 10 or 11. But some of these species grow on the mountains at altitude (exposed with no shade). So not sure about that. Look around at what people grow locally.

I can say that 'Kozan' is said to not do so well in dry weather. Even here, I had one die because of the hot dry summers, I think. So Kozan system may be avoided? While on the contrary, I think Nuccio's in LA sells Kozan. So if that plant really suffers in the hot weather there, they probably wouldn't grow and sell it.

 

[Ruddigger]

I think Nuccio's in LA sells Kozan. So if that plant really suffers in the hot weather there, they probably wouldn't grow and sell it.

Definitely go to Nuccios for your azalea needs.

 

[Paradox]

Kurume are more cold tolerant/hardy than Satuski, but I dont believe its a big difference

 

[Harunobu]

It is definitely true that some kurume are more cold tolerant than satsuki. So the hardiest kurume are hardier than the hardiest satsuki. But when they transported the kurume from Southern Japan to the west (either Europe or NA), some kurume turned out to be cold-tender. So it is quite likely true that the kurume you encounter are on average more cold hardy than the satuski you encounter. But it is not true to say that kurume are Northern Japanese plants. And satuski are southern Japanese plants. In some respect, the contrary is true. So in a discussion of heat and drought tolerance, kurume may be as good or better than (some) satsuki.

 

[bunjin]

If you wanted to try Camellias, I would go with a Sasanqua or maybe a hybrid. I would ask Nuccios for recommendations as the ones I got from them this year are doing very well. The last couple of years with the high temps have really been difficult. I note that my Camellias that are subject to direct sun have suffered leaf burn more than the azaleas on the hottest days. It is unfortunate that the Southern Indicas are not so suitable for bonsai as they are really the toughest in full sun.

 

[Graft]

I have a single azalea in a pot. But I'm unsure if it's a satsuki or kurume. Is there a fool proof way to tell which is which. I am planning to do the John Geanangels's drastic pruning method on it starting in Spring.

 

[エドガー]

Thanks guys... I sometimes browse Nuccio's catalog.. may have to order from him in the future.
I've seen videos, demos/lectures and interviews of him and his nursery, and he always says there's no problem with azaleas in SoCal. But then again, all his stock is under shade-cloth with an advanced misting system.

Yeah, I've seen John Geanangel's videos. I've never trunked-chopped any myself; but, a rabbit trunk-chopped a kurume I put out in the front yard. Hasn't come back yet after 4-5 months; so probably dead.

Also, not nearly as drastic as a trunk-chop, but I also simply lightly pruned another small satsuki azalea I had (just reduced whorls to bifurcation), and it killed it, lol. It slowly turned brown after the light pruning and then fully brown. Hasn't come back after 4-5 months.

Around that same time, a rat pruned all the twigs off another satsuki azalea, and it hasn't come back either. The rats also decimated 6 pots full of rooted azalea cuttings (of course, those didn't bounce back).

The aforesaid is my 2020 deaths. In 2018, I also bought 9 kurume saplings.... 6 died over the fall/winter (didn't grow the following spring).


At least all my other species are doing great though and super healthy, lol.

 

[Ruddigger]

This one isnt a Satsuki, it’s a White Lace azalea I got from Armstrong in November. It got a root reduction and hard chop in April, and the last picture was taken today.

 

[エドガー]

Very nice! I don't have the same luck.

Perhaps the azalea material I'm working with is too young/small (1 gallons and also starters/4").