Are These Pine Roots Healthy?

mrcasey

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I have jwp grafted onto jbp root stock. The trees are planted in pine bark and
perlite. Several are in 1 quart pots and several are in 1 gallon pots. When I examined
the root balls, most of the trees seemed root bound. At the bottom of the pots, there was a mat
of circling roots that looked kind of dead. I saw almost no white root tips and lots of roots
that were dark in color. The tops look really healthy and vibrant, but I know that pines can look healthy
for some time after having begun to decline. A few questions:
Should I be concerned about the (possibly) dead circling roots at the very botton of the containers?
Are the roots healthy?
Should I wait until next spring to up pot or should I up pot sooner?

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garywood

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Mr. K, is there a particular reason you decided to check the roots? Roots are like their counterparts (shoots). There is usually a ying and yang thing going on where one grows and the other reacts. There will "hardly" be both. If you have acceptable shoot growth that is usually indicative of acceptable root growth. I guess I'm asking what is your concern? Water is usually the culprit with lower root problems if you think there is one, so, be aware of that. But, if the shoots have progressed as expected then there shouldn't be an emergency re-pot necessary.
 

mrcasey

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I was rereading Brent Walston's grafting article and he mentioned how quickly his new grafts colonize
their pots and how it was important to not let the new grafts get root bound. Out of curiosity, I pulled
one out of it's pot and saw lots of root balls like I have pictured above. My concern is that leaving lots of
dead root circling at the bottoms of the pots will be unhealthy for these trees. Trouble is, I can't really
tell if those dark circling roots are dead or not. I know that black slimy roots are definitely dead and fat
white roots are definitely alive, but in between those two extremes, I don't really know what a really healthy
root system looks like.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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If the black roots are firm, they are not dead, they may wind around and around and end in a white tip. You don't want to untangle and trace them back right now. Gently slip these back into their pots and leave them alone until a favorable time for repotting.

Depending whether you are on top of a mountain, or ridge, or in the valley or holler, West Virginia has different micro climates. Other bonsai folk more familiar than can guide you on exact timing for repotting,, but with JWP, even JWP grafted on JBP or Scots Pine or Pinus nigra, There are 2 seasons usually thought of as best time for repotting. Spring, after new buds have started moving, but before buds have fully expanded into ''candles''. THis is the normal spring repotting season. The second season is after the new needles of this years candles have hardened off. You will see the brown sheath at the base of the needle bundles will be falling off of this years needles. For the Chicago-Milwaukee area it would be after August 15 but before September 15, for WV it is probably a week or two earlier and could happen up to a week or two later. This is the late summer repotting season. Do not repot past the Autumn equinox.

The year you repot you do no major pruning before or after. Allow the tree at least 12 months after repotting to do any other major work. Best to have not done any major pruning for at least 6 months before doing a repot. Repotting a tree is traumatic and JWP tend to be fussy.

I'm concerned, @R3x might be correct, at least about being concerned at not seeing evidence of mycorrhiza. I'm not certain about the insects, but I am concerned about lack of mycorrhiza. It is possible you are keeping the potting media too wet. Try not to water until when you stick your finger an inch or so into the pot it feels barely damp to actually dry, don't water until then. The human finger is a better water meter than any electronic probe you can buy. Some will use a bamboo skewer, you stick a skewer into the pot an leave it. When you pull it out you will be able to see and feel the depth the media is still moist. I think you are border line over watering you pines.

If the overwatering is really bad, foliage, needles will yellow, new growth will yellow, but by the time this happens, roots have begun rotting away. Then it is almost too late to save the tree.

That is my opinion, but I am just working from a photo, if you have a bonsai club near by take a tree or two with you to a meeting, I'm sure someone can give you some help.
 

R3x

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If the black roots are firm, they are not dead, they may wind around and around and end in a white tip. You don't want to untangle and trace them back right now. Gently slip these back into their pots and leave them alone until a favorable time for repotting.
This may be true but there are no white tips visible. If they are there some should be visible.

I'm not certain about the insects, ...
Well I am certain about insects. You can see them in the picture - those grey bugs in the picture. These love wet environments and eat rotting matter which could be an indication although they might be just hiding there (still they love wet environment to live in). It is either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillidium_vulgare or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcellio_scaber

I am too with overwatering with Leo. How about repotting into anorganic substrate?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Key is, for West Virginia climate - this time 12 June 2019 is NOT a good time to repot. The very warm and humid period of the summer is approaching, the heat will stress the tree. My suggestion would be if the OP agrees that there are insects, they treat for insects and then modify watering schedule to water less frequently until the next window of opportunity to repot the tree. Disturbing the roots now runs the risk of weakening the tree. Roots should not be disturbed at this point in the growing cycle. Later after night time temperatures begin to drop below 18 C, or below 65 F, then it will become safer to mess with the roots. If more than 4 nights of 7 for the week are above 65 F at night, above 18 C, then the summer is too warm for repotting. The summer heat is broken when the temperatures begin to regularly fall below 65 F at night. Then there is a period of rapid root growth. It is ideal to repot just before an episode of root growth, so that the new roots will colonize the new media rapidly, and grow and replace roots damaged or broken during the repotting. Typically for my region, about August 15, the summer heat has diminished, for West Virginia, I'm guessing the cooling at night will begin around Sept 1 to Sept 7, Key is if you are going to do a late summer repotting, you need to do it before the Autumnal Equinox, usually September 21. After the equinox the time is needed for roots to grow, repair and have time to mature before the onset of winter.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Mycorrhizae are usually invisible to the naked eye unless there's a lot to munch on. Then they go rhizomorphic with those whitish ropes flinging around.
Half of all mycorrhizae aren't white, some are red, some are black, some are brown. Back in the lab we found green ones, pink ones, yellow ones, red ones, as well as bacteria in every color except purple.

Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean they're not there.
I uploaded a quick look in the rhizosphere of pines as a PDF in the resources page. In those pictures you can hardly see them, but they are there, and they're almost transparent compared to the bacterial blotches.
 

Japonicus

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@mrcasey how many of these did you remove from the pot/can they were in?

The one(s) pictured are not root bound which you’ll know if root bound
by how the water passes through the pot. It becomes more and more difficult
to water the tree properly, enough, keeping the top roots water logged turning black
on top, and the tree can fail due to drying out even though the soil appears wet.
See your 2nd picture, there’s a matting of roots on the outside where you see nothing
but roots no bark or anything else. That area is getting bound, but not enough overall
to warrant a repot, trimming of the roots, or any root work at all.
 

mrcasey

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Japonicus,

All told, I took about 12 of the grafted Japanese white pines slipped them out and examined their roots. Just to compare, I also looked at the root balls of a few Japanese black pines, shimpaku junipers, and Japanese maples. The maples and the junipers still had several white bud caps distributed around the outside of the root balls. Some of the black pines did and some didn't. A couple of the white pine grafts had the white bud caps.

Leo and R3x,

The bugs are what we around here call pill bugs. I suspect that they're mostly harmless, but they probably do indicate some dampness.
 

0soyoung

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You are a very curious cat, @mrcasey 😺

That is a good thing, IMHO.

I think you are (or could be) learning about the capacity for roots to recover from root pruning. The auxin and carbohydrate from the buds and leaves above are stimulus, fuel, and materiel for all the tree's growth. Some of this must get to the roots, but the amount is subject to a lot of influences. When you find lots of white root tips, I think it shows that there is a capacity for root regrowth to recover from pruning or whatever other sort of damage that may occur. I think the absence of any white root tips means there is a low capacity for root regrowth and likely would be poor times to choose to repot the tree. I've tried potting trees in transparent pots to quantify the amount of white root tips in time, but found it very difficult because roots aren't just brown and then abruptly white. Their color varies continuously from the lightest color at the tip to the dark color of older roots and I was unable to reliably count them.
 

augustine

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Someone said they are not an expert, me neither.

However Gary Wood is an expert, do what he recommended. Watch your watering and repot next season at the appropriate time.
 

augustine

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No disrespect to OSO and Leo, they are very knowledgeable practitioners also. But if you're confused and need a definitive answer, do what Wood said!
 

MichaelS

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Most of those roots are dead or will die soon. At least the bottom ones. You should repot immediately into a small pot after removing all the dead roots. Repot into a clay pot (a small one!) and use either course sand or that with some sphagnum moss. Water once and let it dry out before watering again. Keep in shade for a week and then gradually introduce it to the sun. It might be too far gone though.
Only worth doing this if the tree has promise.
 

sorce

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I think it's good you brought it up, since, according to my Lemon Beavers thread, folks think rolley polleys, aka pill bigs aka sow bigs aka Tiny Lemon Beavers are harmless ....

They're not.

I was having a problem with a Siberian Elm, yeah those weeds, from Frary. Shook out a couple a them from the root ball and it's been growing since.

Bottom top correlation?
Tiny shoots turning Brown.
What I imagine underneath as, fresh pink root tips being eaten.
Same same.

Fuck them Lemon Beavers.
They die now.

Sorce
 
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sorce

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This Mugo has been having problems, it has been "bluer" than the rest so I have been chalking it up to different genes.

Checked it right now, after finding a Lemon Beaver on the surface.

Found some clear jelly like eggs too. Some nematodes. Millipedes.
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Some of the healthy ones. 6inch candles.
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Sorce
 

mrcasey

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I decided not to mess with the roots last year (aside from exposing and looking at root balls). They all survived our abnormally warm winter and I up potted the root bound ones this spring. I used a single pronged root hook to try and unwrap circling roots, all the while trying not to tear out fine roots. I was kind of trying to use the "fuzz" method of up potting described by Adair. I don't have much else to report other than to say they're growing like gangbusters.

I'm guessing that those roots from 2019, even without the beautiful white tell-tale caps, were perfectly healthy. Maybe I'll pull a few out again and post pictures if I see anything weird or interesting.
 
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