Are you a bouger?

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So, after a number of weeks wrestling with ph, I've decided that my boug was suffering from lock-out. I'm still trying to bring the ph down, but the combination of pinching all of the bracts as they begin to show colour and applying a moderate to heavy feed rate, has encouraged the plant to back bud like it should. (or as I thought it should) As well, I water thoroughly and then allow it to become quite dry before giving it a good soaking again. It's under the same full spectrum lighting that it was previously, so that and the watering didn't change.

IMHO, the pinching seems to be as effective at promoting growth (back-budding) as the ph correction, but together it seems to be the trick that I was looking for... the next year will tell the truth of it though.

(I have been giving my Brazilian Raintrees the very same treatment(s) as the boug, and they are loving it... pretty amazing little plants... I thought they'd be finicky little bastards... not so!)
 

JosephCooper

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Nice, I really want to try some bouganvilleas later this year, this thread really helped.
 

Carol 83

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Sorce, I like that shape for a boug, and I think it would work well, but after seeing how temperamental they are with the roots, I'd tend to lean toward a tapered pot for easy(er) extraction...
That pot is actually a Sorcemission pot @sorce . I sent him a picture and gave him the dimensions I needed the pot to be. I think it will be OK, just have to be careful with the watering.
 

DeanoAZ

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DeanoAZ,

Take it for what it's worth, but I think you have more than an iron deficiency... my next post might present some food for thought?
Looking forward to some of your food for thought regarding my "Iron Deficiency". I have added some powdered sulfur, but haven't seen much of a change to this point. Other than the leaves, my boug seems very healthy.
 

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DeanoAZ

My "next post" was post #61.

I am NOT going to assume that you don't know what you're doing, but I AM going to assume that someone (at some point) will read these posts about bougainvilleas that has little to no experience with them... so don't take what I say as an insult, if you already know what you're doing.

To phrase it another way; it doesn't matter what we apply to the soil if the plant is in "lock-out". The ph of the soil, for a given plant, can cause this if the ph isn't in the range that the plant requires.

Refer to MH7's post #30 about ph requirements for bougs. (5.5 - 6)

When making ph adjustments, say from a 7.8 to a 5.5, you'll have to "overshoot" your desired target to get the results faster... HOWEVER, I am "absolutely certain" that there is/are a wide range of opinions on why this should or should not be done... I happen to do it to get the plant back on track as quickly as possible.
 

DeanoAZ

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DeanoAZ

My "next post" was post #61.

I am NOT going to assume that you don't know what you're doing, but I AM going to assume that someone (at some point) will read these posts about bougainvilleas that has little to no experience with them... so don't take what I say as an insult, if you already know what you're doing.

To phrase it another way; it doesn't matter what we apply to the soil if the plant is in "lock-out". The ph of the soil, for a given plant, can cause this if the ph isn't in the range that the plant requires.

Refer to MH7's post #30 about ph requirements for bougs. (5.5 - 6)

When making ph adjustments, say from a 7.8 to a 5.5, you'll have to "overshoot" your desired target to get the results faster... HOWEVER, I am "absolutely certain" that there is/are a wide range of opinions on why this should or should not be done... I happen to do it to get the plant back on track as quickly as possible.
My research agrees with MH7's ph of 5.5-6. I don't get easily offended, unless someone is just being an a__hole. Bring it on!
 

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My bougainvillea growing well. I changed the angle a while back to try to get a twin trunk. Spotted a few new buds today. It's nice to see branch thickening. I'll make its own thread this year. This is kind of fun.
 

milehigh_7

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@DeanoAZ BTW sulfur works really slow. Like over a month or 2 the lower pH will make the minerals more available to the plant. Look at the chart below. I will guess 6 is the sweet spot for bougs.


ph_impacts_chart.jpg
 

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Hopefully I'm not being redundant, but I am trying to identify a bougainvillea species I have. I have researched Mr. Google and can't find it by the listings there. It is very young and not a grand champion, but maybe after I am gone, it will put all others to shame. The leaves are a light yellow-green, with dark green veining (it is very healthy, and rapidly putting on new growth, so I don't think the leaf veining/color is an unhealthy indication) . Bracts appear to be smaller. Not sure if the picture is good enough to see it clearly. I would appreciate someone identifying it for me & giving me some pointers if you think something is wrong with it to cause the leaf color:

Definitely iron. The green veins are the giveaway. Perhaps it's ph perhaps needs iron. Look at that chart I posted and you will see that Iron is not greatly available to the plant until 6.5 and not fully until 6.
 

SU2

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I will repeat my suggestion here to just buy some Bougain. It's pretty much perfect for bougs.

Would you say that the ~1% magnesium is ideal? I'm not using bougain but am trying to figure-out what the ideal magnesium rate for bougies is so I can try to hit that w/ Epsom Salts (unless the sulfur becomes too-much, but w/ my tap-water being close to 8pH I imagine that the sulfur is alll good - would like to know if that's wrong though!)

Bougain always seemed wanting to me, the magnesium seemed too-low and it had zero sulfur...also the macro/NPK ratio is a blooming-fertilizer ratio and I'm trying to keep my bougies in vegetative growth so it wouldn't work for me due to that alone :/

I water 1-2x/day, and my fertilization is a 3-day rotation, day 1 is 24-8-16 (1tbsp/gallon), day 2 is tap water, day 3 is epsom salts (~1/4-->1/2tsp/gallon) Am thinking to up the fertilizer by ~50% and double the epsom salts (maybe more, am just hesitant to guess at #'s for its use, it seems like it'd be a perfect adjunct to my regular 24-8-16 miracle gro I just wish I knew how much to use so I could stop erring on the side of wayyy-too-low!
 

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As a review; I have been trying to get my boug into veg and stop flowering. In particular I wanted to get the plant to back bud because it is largish and leggy. A number of weeks ago, I was messing with my BRT's... in particular I was changing the substrate, so I thought that I'd do the same with the boug. The substrate ended up far too open and caused me to have to water twice a day... not a good thing for someone who needs to be away for 48 hours (or more) at a time.

So by now, the boug wasn't my focus any longer, I wanted to get the BRTs soil straightened away before they took on another growth spurt. I changed the soil in the boug once again to a medium-heavy soil mix (imagine potting soil with sheep shit 50/50), and totally defoliated it, cutting back the leggy growth that I didn't want... I watered it in and took the plant upstairs where it only got highly filtered light in a pantry which is situated on the north side of the house... I watered it once in two weeks before it began to show vegetative growth again... it is now back in the light cabinet under numerous HO T-5s and every spot where one might think that it could back-bud it's showing new vegetative growth...

I would NOT recommend anyone follow the steps that I outlined here with their bougainvillea, but something in that sequence of events, caused the plant to react just like I wanted it to for the last year. (As a guess, I think that totally defoliating the plant, and giving it a rest, did the majority of the prompting that it needed... thanks @milehigh_7 for that bit of info! (even though that isn't the exact recommendation that he promotes)
 
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Q: for @milehigh_7

I was planning on waiting another week before starting into a fertilizer regiment... right now the average leaf size is about the same as a mouse's ear... do you think this is a reasonable plan? Unfortunately I can't get bougainvillea here, but I think I can replicate the mix in a relatively close manner.
 

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Well, I guess I jumped the gun on the "veg" thing... the boug did back-bud like mad, only 2 or 3 places that it showed a possibility of a bud-break which didn't occur... but the leaves on at least 1/2 the plant are already showing that it is heading into flower again. However, the goal was to push the legginess back with a pruning and then let it fill in with back-budding (in veg)... I guess, I got the best of both worlds.
 

SU2

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As a review; I have been trying to get my boug into veg and stop flowering. In particular I wanted to get the plant to back bud because it is largish and leggy. A number of weeks ago, I was messing with my BRT's... in particular I was changing the substrate, so I thought that I'd do the same with the boug. The substrate ended up far too open and caused me to have to water twice a day... not a good thing for someone who needs to be away for 48 hours (or more) at a time.

So by now, the boug wasn't my focus any longer, I wanted to get the BRTs soil straightened away before they took on another growth spurt. I changed the soil in the boug once again to a medium-heavy soil mix (imagine potting soil with sheep shit 50/50), and totally defoliated it, cutting back the leggy growth that I didn't want... I watered it in and took the plant upstairs where it only got highly filtered light in a pantry which is situated on the north side of the house... I watered it once in two weeks before it began to show vegetative growth again... it is now back in the light cabinet under numerous HO T-5s and every spot where one might think that it could back-bud it's showing new vegetative growth...

I would NOT recommend anyone follow the steps that I outlined here with their bougainvillea, but something in that sequence of events, caused the plant to react just like I wanted it to for the last year. (As a guess, I think that totally defoliating the plant, and giving it a rest, did the majority of the prompting that it needed... thanks @milehigh_7 for that bit of info! (even though that isn't the exact recommendation that he promotes)

What kind of container is that boug in (the one that's in soil/dirt)? And yeah 2 weeks is common when they're pushing through thicker bark (1 week for soft bark and 2-6wks for thick bark is what I've seen, most of my trees are bougies ;p ) I'd wager that putting it in the light cabinet would've gotten it to bud sooner, they like lots of lux on the bark when trying to push buds, am glad to hear it's budding profusely because not all cultivars do (some will give tens of buds on a branch, others just a few - almost all give *some* though!)

Am confused why you chose to use a potting soil like that, have you found better results w/ that & bougies? I know you wanted water retention but that can still be achieved in a fast-drain mix (am thinking cacti/epiphytic substrates), would you have opted for that if you had it on-hand while doing that?

My biggest problem is keeping them vegetative, I've tried so many different techniques to thwart flowering-phases (which can take almost half a year's growth away, they're the only bonsai specimen I know that can spend so much of the year not growing despite great conditions!), have you heard the line about "trees that flower on their growing-tips discontinue growth at that tip after flowering" before? This was told to me and others confirmed it, the idea that if you let the shoot get 3'+ and it starts flowering, that, in order to keep that branch lengthening, you must now rely on a new primary-tip for the branch from somewhere down-shoot that's not flowering. Anyways I've had others tell me that's *not* the case, that if you let that 3' branch flower and finish, that it'd just resume growing again - do you know the answer on this?

My current approach is to simply remove all flowers as they form, I'm going out and using scissors/tweezers to remove any flowers and am marking some branches (with date and length of branch) to see what's what, I'd normally prune back but that's just such a waste of resources to do every time it wants to flower because it's so frequent, have just started this flower-removal approach and have two 'groups', one where I leave the actual tips on the shoots and another where I remove the tip (because those tips still have flowers in them - the group that I left the tips, am expecting to have to cut-off the flowers in a week once they've grown-out), will see how these go!
 

SU2

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Well, I guess I jumped the gun on the "veg" thing... the boug did back-bud like mad, only 2 or 3 places that it showed a possibility of a bud-break which didn't occur... but the leaves on at least 1/2 the plant are already showing that it is heading into flower again. However, the goal was to push the legginess back with a pruning and then let it fill in with back-budding (in veg)... I guess, I got the best of both worlds.

If I'm picturing this right, I got a huge dose of this problem earlier this year after doing my spring hard-prune of my garden (right as things were waking-up), I pruned-back to 2 nodes on sooo many shoots that had never been touched (most were hardwood cuttings I propagated last summer), I expected all those nodes to throw new branches but, in many instances, I simply got flowering right on the nodes! So now I've got a bunch of 'rooted HW stock' that I thought I'd be able to grow-out but instead are trying to flower on these tiny 'branches' (barely a node or two, the flowers are basically sitting on the branches themselves), and there's no good spots I could cut-back to, so am doing the same w/ those ie just removing flowers as I can and hoping that a node that was pushing flowers will revert to vegetative growth (though this would be in contrary to what a guy who I considered a bougie-expert told me was the case....have been trying to find the Reddit thread to no avail because all I can think is I misunderstood, though it was pretty clear & definitive ie 'trees that flower on terminal tips of the branch don't continue growth from the flowering nodes, but from nodes lower-down the branch'...
 

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Well, there is a lot to respond to in your two posts, and before I continue, I'll remind anyone who may read this, that I am NO bougainvillea expert!... you may be better off not reading it at all. :p

For substrate: I made a few less-than-ideal choices since I got the plant 18 months ago, and got to the point where either I was going to kill it mucking about, or I was going to make certain that it survived by reverting to a natural substrate. The potting soil and sheep shit has worked really well and the plant is doing quite well now (health wise). I intend on leaving the roots alone for 2-3 years to develop a thick root-pad before deciding on any other substrate change.

For veg/flowering; It turns out that I counted 11 flowering positions on the plant (this morning) that I'd guess would be about 15-20% of the new growth... so really, it is pretty well balanced despite my earlier comment.

The container: I like terra cotta bulb-pots for in doors, and use those green Scotchbrite scrub pads from the dollar store as a cover for the drain hole in the bottom of the pot(s)... even with an organic substrate, they seem to allow sufficient drainage, without the loss of soil each watering, but still don't tend to plug up... they work really well with smaller inorganic "bonsai type" substrates.

Flowering: I found that clipping the bracts and flowers as soon as they began to show colour, did have "some effect" on encouraging veg but not enough to employ as a way to prevent flowering. I am undecided if the plant is trying to flower because it thinks its going to die (and wants to throw its seed before this happens), or if they just flower when they have available resources (I tend to think the latter in the case of bougs). I "should (and have intended to)" get a tiny paint brush and try to pollinate the flowers by hand... it "may" cause the plant to slow or stop it's flowering phase like roses and other plants do once it knows that the pollination was successful. I have not heard of the "flowering on growing tips" line with bougainvilleas, but I'm sure that it does apply to some plants. I do know that cutting roses back to a position where there are 5-7 leaves on a branch will cause a new flush of growth.

My intentions: The trunk on this plant is 3-3.5" across (depending on the viewing angle) and about 6-8" high. Will make a good formal upright, if I can get the veg stage straightened away. However, I now realize that it won't ever have good branch structure, so the best I can do is fill in the canopy with vegetative growth to have a fuller looking appearance... the plant is on track to do this now.

Thoughts: No matter what plant I buy, I spend a considerable amount of time researching different aspects in hopes of getting the best results sooner. I have never encountered a plant that seems to have so many different growth patterns from region to region, cultivar to cultivar, gardener to gardener, etc. I have had some sound advice from more than a few people here on B'nut, but due to circumstances in my particular situation (growing indoors in zone 3, etc) , I haven't always heeded that advice. (I think it was Leo in Illinois who said to leave the roots alone for a couple of years after the first repotting.) I want those people to know that their advice wasn't ignored outright. No matter what anyone says, I do give it consideration, but I did what I thought to be the best course, at that moment in time, with the experience that I've gained with other plants, and the resources that are available to me... I think FINALLY all those particulars have come together to get an outcome that will be sufficient for me... will it ever be worth showing; "hell no"... but that was never my intention anyway.

"If I were you"; I'd leave one of those cuttings to do whatever it wanted to do and see what the results are. You are fortunate to be in the best place (possibly) in the continental U.S. for this plant's natural growth habit, so I'd take advantage of that. "In my mind" just the term "vine" conjures thoughts of something that grows helter-skelter... you can't push a rope or herd bumble bees, so letting it do what it wants "might get you something worthwhile", but continually messing with it/them, might ensure that you're never satisfied with it on any level.

I don't know if it's my eyes, the lighting, the particulars of how and where it is growing, or the cultivar, but the bracts on mine are 1/2 way between purple and pink (which is kind of "a good thing" since I don't particularly like either colour)... any ideas on what cultivar it might be?
 

Starfox

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Anyways I've had others tell me that's *not* the case, that if you let that 3' branch flower and finish, that it'd just resume growing again - do you know the answer on this?

Hey, I replied to you elsewhere on this but you at least got me thinking enough to go check what was happening on mine and it's easier to post pics here so here are a few pics of growth beyond the flowers.
Pretty much everyone of mine are doing something different but all are pushing growth now as you would expect this time of year.

This first pic may show it best, on this tree the first thing it did when it woke up from winter was to start flowering, now that the flowering has stopped it is pushing veg out. You can see the flower stem at the first node and now new growth going beyond that.

IMG_7538d.JPG

Next on this one you can see the new leaf covering the flower.

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And this is from a landscape boug which you can see is pushing new growth for more flowers.
IMG_7535d.JPG

This is what I am seeing at least, as I said I had never given it much thought. They just grow and grow and when the flowers are spent I trim them back for back budding and shape and go again. If they don't stop flowering but they need a trim then I cut anyway.
 

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@SU2 and @Starfox

These are some interesting observations (to which I might be reading too much into).

I read Starfox's comment this morning and went to look at how mine is growing now, and it is flowering in the same fashion that his is. I have a failing memory, but I'm quite certain that it was flowering on the tips only, and had very little vegetative growth what so ever. I wonder if this could be used as a way to diagnose an unhappy plant.

@Bonsai Nut pretty much said the same thing that Starfox said in his last 3 sentences, and I think that would be 100% accurate if the plant was happy and healthy... it was frustrating to hear that they are so "easy" to keep growing when mine didn't seem to follow the same pattern.

In any case, I think my struggles are over with now... it's growing well, with a dense vegetative growth habit, and great colour on the leaves.

I'd like to throw out a "thanks" to anyone who took a stab at diagnosing these problems...
 
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