Are you a Parrot?

Smoke

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Parrot.jpg

What is a parrot. It's a bird, sure. But it also listens to everything it hears and regurgitates it over and over again finding entertainment with anyone willing to show it some love. What a parrot doesn't have is an original thought. It doesn't think for it'self and it only repeats what it hears and doesn't even care if its factual.

There are a lot of parrots here at Bonsainut. Lots of wannabe's that have something to say in every thread parroting something they heard on a video on youtube, or something they heard twenty years ago at some convention in a town that doesn't even exist anymore.

Then there is the guy that parrots the same crap over and over and its not even based in any fact. Just because you say it 30 times doesn't make it fact.

I hear words like:

They don't do that anymore
They won't buy them anymore
They did that twenty years ago

"they" is a word that should never be used at a forum where people come to get knowledge. If posting about other peoples work is the way you do bonsai then tell people that up front and tell people that you are parroting information from someone and that you can do it or not but this works for me, try it if you wish, but I understand its not the only way.

If you feel what you have to share is the only way, start a blog so you can filter out the remarks you don't agree with and hope like hell someone lives near you and your methods will work for them.

I guarantee that Ryan, Peter W. Peter T. and Michael H. would kill an entire collection one year where I live. They have absolutely no idea how to grow bonsai in this God Forsaken desert I live in. It took Kenji Miyata only 5 years to finally get out of the central valley so he could grow trees the way he was used to in the North East.

Who's a parrot and proud of it?

Not me, I only post what I do and what I am growing, and I'm very proud of that.....and could really care less if anyone does anything I do.
 

Smoke

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This is reminding me of BonsaiNut from 5 years back... Popcorn time! - Ooops! Wait, now I'm parroting all the old timers from when I first started here :rolleyes:

But seriously, popcorn time ;)
I don’t think so, popcorn means you think it would go sideways. How can the truth go sideways. Why is it necessary to continually parrot what (insert favorite master) says when you can read or watch it from the horses mouth. I mean he has Ryan N has tons of stuff on the net and you tube. I’ve never watched one nor would I. Nothing he has to say about most of what he does works for me in Fresno CA. The proof of that is that since Kenji left Ryan N is the guy working most of the third GSBF collection in CA here in Fresno. So far he’s about 50 percent. His Oregon technique is to aggressive here in the desert. He’ll get it over time I’m sure but it has been a learning curve.

I just posted this cause I been around a long time, and unfortunately I plan on being here a long time more. I would love to read some things people are doing that’s original. If your working on pines which I would like to know more, I want to see what your doing on your own trees and hear your own words, ( not your teachers) and show me why what you did worked or didn’t work. I can’t argue with someone showing me what they do and it’s effects. Now if I want to challenge that I sure in the hell better have better results then the guy I’m wishing to argue with. Otherwise I just look stupid. I’m not into stupid. There are those here that regularly argue and never post a single progression of anything they have taken from shit to shiny.

That’s why I posted it.
 

milehigh_7

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I guarantee that Ryan, Peter W. Peter T. and Michael H. would kill an entire collection one year where I live. They have absolutely no idea how to grow bonsai in this God Forsaken desert I live in. It took Kenji Miyata only 5 years to finally get out of the central valley so he could grow trees the way he was used to in the North East.

Who's a parrot and proud of it?

Not me, I only post what I do and what I am growing, and I'm very proud of that.....and could really care less if anyone does anything I do.

You see a ton of that (way more than here) on the FB groups. LOL!

What you said reminded me of a conversation I had with Chris Kirk several years ago. I believe he used to live in Vegas and found it less than conducive to bonsai. LOL!!! He's got better digs now!
 

Smoke

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You see a ton of that (way more than here) on the FB groups. LOL!

What you said reminded me of a conversation I had with Chris Kirk several years ago. I believe he used to live in Vegas and found it less than conducive to bonsai. LOL!!! He's got better digs now!
I’m sure Telperion is a beautiful place.
 

wireme

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I hate to be Mr Whinny pants here but...All I have ever done here is post my own trees, own progressions, own ideas and experiences, really my own. Have never met a teacher, never been to a club meeting, have spoken in person to people who know bonsai maybe a grand total of 6hrs combined. All material from seeds, cuttings, regular nursery or collected myself.
Any acknowledgment of this or offerings of encouragement from smoke over the years ever? Nope.
 

brewmeister83

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I don’t think so, popcorn means you think it would go sideways. How can the truth go sideways. Why is it necessary to continually parrot what (insert favorite master) says when you can read or watch it from the horses mouth.

Huh, here I was thinking that saying around here meant "get ready for the show" b/c the OP made a "come at me bro" post. Guess you learn something new every day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Got a serious question for ya then... going to play devil's advocate for a bit for the sake of discussion...

According to your logic above, anytime I say "I saw it online" or "that's what they do in Japan" I'm parroting? But what if it's for a technique that just unilaterally works across the board and is common horticultural/bonsai knowledge? Is it still parroting if multiple people quote the same vid or Bonsai Today article that has said proven technique? Now, I've never had a teacher, studied a bit of horticulture, but when I came to bonsai I realized quickly there was a huge gap in my knowledge concerning plants and what you can do to them so I taught myself as much as I could through books and the internet (hence why I'm on this site) - If I could go back and tell myself from five years ago I can put a new root system on a maple tree or larch halfway up the trunk, I would have been skeptical - but I saw it on Harry Harrington's site, saw it in Grahm Potter's vids, read about it in Nick Lens' book, and I've seen it all over the place in articles about bonsai originating from Japan and they all say it works if done at the right time of year on the right plant - but this year is the first year I've ever used the technique myself. Have I just been parroting about a technique for the past five years since I hadn't done it myself until this spring? Because I think it's safe to say that I can talk about the basics of a horticultural technique like air layering without having actual personal experience if it just plain works and it's common knowledge. And guess what? They (the bonsai community in the West) have been saying that they (the Japanese) have been using this technique for centuries. Is this really parroting, or is it just the truth at this point?

What it sounds like you're saying above is that there's a bunch of people running around saying the sky is blue because they heard it online or their teacher says so - and you're chastising them for saying it without measuring the wavelength of light in the atmosphere to determine it's visible spectrum first before they open their mouths. Smoke, all due respect, but there's being original, and then there's re-inventing the wheel for no reason.

Granted, this is a gross oversimplification, but I think you'll get my point.
 
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Smoke

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I hate to be Mr Whinny pants here but...All I have ever done here is post my own trees, own progressions, own ideas and experiences, really my own. Have never met a teacher, never been to a club meeting, have spoken in person to people who know bonsai maybe a grand total of 6hrs combined. All material from seeds, cuttings, regular nursery or collected myself.
Any acknowledgment of this or offerings of encouragement from smoke over the years ever? Nope.
I had a guy I was working with a few years ago. He had some cut up nursery material and was growing some of his own not exactly knowing just what to do. As we worked and I tried to explain why the octopus juniper he was trying to develop was not exactly coming along quite as good as he wanted. We talked about it and I explained on paper what to look for in material and where and how he should pursue it. He told me I had great trees cause I started with great material. He said what could I tell him that would improve his collection. I told him to get a better job!

Is that the kind of encouragement your looking for? You know what it takes and the difference is always money.
 

Djtommy

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I had a guy I was working with a few years ago. He had some cut up nursery material and was growing some of his own not exactly knowing just what to do. As we worked and I tried to explain why the octopus juniper he was trying to develop was not exactly coming along quite as good as he wanted. We talked about it and I explained on paper what to look for in material and where and how he should pursue it. He told me I had great trees cause I started with great material. He said what could I tell him that would improve his collection. I told him to get a better job!

Is that the kind of encouragement your looking for? You know what it takes and the difference is always money.

That’s funny because I’d take almost any of wireme’s early stage trees over your “developed “bonsai.
You know, it’s said a lot to take advice from someone who’s work you’ve seen and like. I don’t agree with that exactly. I mean, you have posted many progressions with good information but I haven’t seen a tree that I actually like.
it’s doesnt take away from the fact you know how to handle fungus on tridents.
Knowledge of how a tree grows and designing a good looking tree clearly don’t go hand in hand. But I can still learn something from you. Just not about design
 

drew33998

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Who would pay money to see @Smoke versus Ryan neil debate? I will say though it can be really easy to drink the koolaid sometimes. I always consider the source before I try something and make recommendations. At least that's what Ryan Neil says.
 

wireme

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I had a guy I was working with a few years ago. He had some cut up nursery material and was growing some of his own not exactly knowing just what to do. As we worked and I tried to explain why the octopus juniper he was trying to develop was not exactly coming along quite as good as he wanted. We talked about it and I explained on paper what to look for in material and where and how he should pursue it. He told me I had great trees cause I started with great material. He said what could I tell him that would improve his collection. I told him to get a better job!

Is that the kind of encouragement your looking for? You know what it takes and the difference is always money.

Well, I won the battle with that toilet in the end anyways. Put up a hell of a fight.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I try to inform people of when I'm transferring "second hand knowledge".
This can be subtle: "I've read that..", "Sorce says that.."
But, forums, twitter and facebook and every transfer of knowledge basically, are based on parroting. We invited scripture to do so. How sick is that? Another mode of communication, simply to better copy others.

I think there's a negative ring to the phrasing 'parroting'. It umbrellas these two as a whole: Regurgitating chewed up and half processed information versus trying to truthfully recite information.

What bothers me more is the lack of questioning(!), reasoning and logic in the plant world. Not just this forum, not just the bonsai world.. the plant world as a whole has this issue.

A respected member here once said to me the tree would die, because somebody else said so. I said otherwise, but that other guy was more convincing. So no attempt to rescue it will be taken. It will die, simply because someone else said it should/would. That makes me sad. An hour of work every 15 years would have granted it eternal life. But someone said that it shouldn't have eternal life, so it's not getting that.

The science is out there, and as much as everybody hates to hear it: Your bonsai and mine too, they're just plants, they work as plants, they act as plants, they respond as plants. It's not that extensive training and care suddenly changes biochemical laws and replaces them by "japanese black magic". Unless there are actual dragons shooting from your apex of course, then I'll take back those words. And i'll have what you're having! I'll parrot all over that!
 

sorce

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You know what it takes and the difference is always money.

You said that to the guy who has probably the LEAST amount of $ into this...
And the most $ trees for it....

The guy who does this thing more efficiently, as a "hobbyist" than anyone else.

The guy with the LEAST overhead, who uses his time very ....very wisely.


This can be subtle: "I've read that..", "Sorce says that

I use "I've read that". Weird I never read "Sorce says that". So I thought you meant I say, "I've read that"...but clearly there are quotes around "Sorce says that".
Lol!

Tell em get my name out they mouth! Lol!

Nah nah...my shit is real! Lol!
Not like this liar! Lol!

"Parrot" is weak!

see a ton of that (way more than here) on the FB groups. LOL!

Yeah when 7 people in a row say the same thing...like its a race...or it means more the more it is said...AND its wrong information!

But "knowledgeable" people never ask the right questions either...

I believe It's Smoke who has a thing about answering questions with questions....
Love that.

But I've heard it somewhere before.

Sorce
 

Anthony

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It pays to know that much of Da Vinci's information was
already known, just not written down.

Man approaches Bnut on bended knee year 1 to 3
Man approaches Bnut standing proud, starts to give advice, goes deaf year 4 to 6
Man approaches Bnut with taped mouth and eyes open year 6 to..........
Experience silences the hard head parrot.

Quietly, the weeder.
Anthony
 
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