Atlas Cedar Forest

dani

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I wanted to start this thread and just update it every now and then with images of the progress. Now, I started this today, I'm a little bit worried because I read that apparently Atlas Cedar isn't fond of repotting and root pruning. I did my best to reduce the root ball as little as possible, but the condition of those 7 trees was horrible. Im pretty sure they were raised for a long time in a tiny tiny seedling pots, the roots were all spinning around in a circle, complete tangled mess and there was no way to separate them. Not to mention that they break easily.

So far, this is the started project. Fingers crossed they will survive and start growing ??
 

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my nellie

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Isn't it a little late to repot now?
I think it is...
Anyway, now you need to keep them sheltered from direct sun and wind until they recover.
Good luck!
 

dani

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Isn't it a little late to repot now?
I think it is...
Anyway, now you need to keep them sheltered from direct sun and wind until they recover.
Good luck!
That's the thing. Some resources were stating that summer repot is more than fine. Some said Spring. What I'm more concerned about is the root pruning. That would keeps me cringing until (hopefully) I see them grow
 

my nellie

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That's the problem with the "resources" :D
But let's be optimistic and hope!
 

0soyoung

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Isn't it a little late to repot now?
I think it is...
Anyway, now you need to keep them sheltered from direct sun and wind until they recover.
Good luck!
Wait for all the new growth to finish hardening (circa August), @dani, and it will be an excellent time to repot.
Recovery will be faster putting it back in full sun.
Protection from wind is always a good thing for bonsai, freshly repotted or not.
 

my nellie

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... ...Recovery will be faster putting it back in full sun.
@Adair M is in agreement with your opinion, too.
In fact I have followed his suggestion with my Juniper with no problem.
On the contrary, I have lost one Cedar which I repotted late in spring with minimal root disturbance.
But of course local climate conditions are not similar.... So I apologize if I was misleading without taking into consideration this parameter.
 

dani

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Wait for all the new growth to finish hardening (circa August), @dani, and it will be an excellent time to repot.
Recovery will be faster putting it back in full sun.
Protection from wind is always a good thing for bonsai, freshly repotted or not.

Right now, I cant provide any sun. We have a very rainy week. I haven't seen the sun in like 3 days. But thank you for the advice! It's very much appreciated
 

my nellie

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@dani Will you please bear with me if I take the opportunity to ask Osoyoung a few questions on the matter and get educated! :)
Wait for all the new growth to finish hardening (circa August), @dani, and it will be an excellent time to repot.
Recovery will be faster putting it back in full sun.
1) Do you consider the role which the age of tree plays in the recovery process to be of importance?
Or there is not a difference whether the material is aged or young?

2) You suggest to repot circa August -> when new growth has hardened.
At my place new growth would be hardened a lot more earlier than August.
If I repot after that, the tree with its injured roots will go through temp. 35-40C and almost completely dry atmosphere.
When do you think it would be optimum for my conditions to repot a Cedar ?

Thank you!
 

0soyoung

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@dani Will you please bear with me if I take the opportunity to ask Osoyoung a few questions on the matter and get educated! :)
1) Do you consider the role which the age of tree plays in the recovery process to be of importance?
Or there is not a difference whether the material is aged or young?
There is some decline in the ability to generate new tissues with age, for the most part, 'old' just means 'bigger'. Some species loose the ability to generate adventitious roots from stems (i.e., root as cuttings/layers) with age. But the physiology of generating more roots from root tissue is pretty much invariant with age. Most adsorption of water and minerals occurs from extensions of the wall of individual cells on the surface of the roots just behind the (usually white colored) growing tip. Roots are dead when this doesn't happen and the tree is dead shortly after this is generally the case. So, for any healthy tree, no age doesn't matter.
@dani2) You suggest to repot circa August -> when new growth has hardened.
At my place new growth would be hardened a lot more earlier than August.
If I repot after that, the tree with its injured roots will go through temp. 35-40C and almost completely dry atmosphere.
When do you think it would be optimum for my conditions to repot a Cedar ?
Optimal root growth occurs at temperatures in the range of 15C to 20C because of a combination of the solubility versus diffusivity of oxygen in water. Above roughly 30C, roots don't grow. Roots die in temperatures approaching and above 45C. This is why I've encouraged people to buy a cheap meat thermometer probe and to stick it in the pot among the roots to see what temperatures the roots are actually experiencing - about $15US is all it takes. The single most effective way to keep the roots cool is to bathe them in cold water. Water has a huge heat capacity (meaning it takes a lot of energy to make water's temperature rise one degree). So, we never want the substrate to go dry - the temperature will soar and cook roots! We must let in oxygen, so all we can do is to limit evaporation from the substrate by covering it with something like damp sphagnum or a damp towel and/or reduce the energy input by covering the pot and all with a damp/reflective material. With a trusty thermometer probe anyone can figure out what works for them, in their location, in their climate, anytime one wants to know. All functioning root tips are new. Root hairs (those extensions of the wall of single cells) last only about a week, even though they are continually being generated and lost.

The problem you've recognized, though, is that one reduces the number of growing root tips when pruning roots and, hence, for a week or two affected a (possibly) serious reduction in the capacity for the tree to take on water. You are correct that low relative humidity makes for high water demand (transpiration). Most conifers (certainly including Atlas cedar) have a waxy cuticle that doesn't pass much water, so they very effectively limit their water demand by closing the leaf stomata. Growing roots requires auxin and food to grow on = carbohydrates from the photosynthesis. Most conifers do this poorly in shade.

The productivity of leaves (in terms of auxin and carbohydrate production) declines with age. In the spring much of the stored carbohydrates has been consumed extending the new growth and auxin in the pipeline to the roots has been depleted (because of its use in the cambium to produce new wood to support the needs of all that new growth). Within a week or two, leaves sense the passage of the summer solstice and there is a big switch in tree growth patterns. The rate of radial growth that was accelerating day by day now slows day by day. A steady flow of auxin becomes available to the roots and they also get their share of all that new high-rate carbohydrate productivity up above. In simpler words, trees have a high capacity to recover from root pruning after the summer solstice.

I say 'circa August' for the sake of giving some time for building strength (carbohydrate storage) before diving in AND ample time to strengthen afterward, before winter dormancy. I believe the window of 'good to go' for repotting runs from mid July to the time temperatures drop below 5C. One just wants to not mess with roots 4 to 6 weeks before temperatures are below freezing for extended periods of time. Adjust the time to July or Sep/Oct/Nov as the constraints of your climate dictate. Trees 'harden' for winter by 'sugaring up' and drying their tissues. It is a process driven by exposure to progressively lower temperature excursions, typically overnight 'frosts'. Sudden excursions from temperatures above 5C to below -5C (or wider) tend to be damaging to all trees. Anecdotally, such sudden, hard freezes are more so to newly pruned roots.


Okay. Sorry that you asked?

wink, wink
nod, nod
 
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barrosinc

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That's the thing. Some resources were stating that summer repot is more than fine. Some said Spring. What I'm more concerned about is the root pruning. That would keeps me cringing until (hopefully) I see them grow
Now you're gonna tell us if it works or not
 

dani

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Now you're gonna tell us if it works or not

Will do! Although, I'm not sure what signs I should check for while monitoring the trees. Would they drop their needles? Get an abnormal brown/orange/yellowish color?
 

dani

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UPDATE: Several of the trees tops' are tilted to one side, very limp looking. That's really not a good sign huh?
 

0soyoung

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Nope, not good.
Its rainy and overcast still?

Put something under one side of the pot so that it is tilted (preferably the wilty trees being on the high side). Change the side that is tipped up after a week.
Maybe also loosely cover the substrate with aluminum foil or plastic film to keep more rain/water from getting in.
 

dani

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Nope, not good.
Its rainy and overcast still?

Put something under one side of the pot so that it is tilted (preferably the wilty trees being on the high side). Change the side that is tipped up after a week.
Maybe also loosely cover the substrate with aluminum foil or plastic film to keep more rain/water from getting in.

The rain stopped, yes, It's quite sunny last couple of days, around 26-28C. Even if it rains, the plants are save. I live in an apartment, so they are on my balcony, the rain doesn't affect them. They don't get soaked at all. They get water only when I water them.
 

0soyoung

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Okay. It is hard for me to keep track of your weather conditions.

If the substrate isn't too wet or too dry, the wilting is then because the air is too dry --> too much water is being lost by transpiration. Remedies for this are a.) less sun and possibly occasional misting. If they don't respond within a day or so (i.e., no longer limp), b.) put it in some type of terrarium that will maintain higher humidity (clear plastic bag/sheeting - arrange some sticks/wire-form to hold the tent up so that it isn't laying directly on the trees.

For occasional misting I make a solution of 300 to 1000 ppm hydrogen peroxide. Here in the U.S. 3% peroxide is available at the grocery/pharmacy. I use a little liter-sized hand sprayer. Peroxide is a good disinfectant - kills fungi and bacteria.

Like @my nellie indicated, you chose pretty much the worst time to mess with the roots. So it goes. This is part of becoming 'expert'. Hopefully it turns out well.
 

cbroad

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@dani

And as a side note for Oso's excellent information, and not necessarily something you need to worry about right now: Atlas cedars are one of the only conifers (that I've personally witnessed, several times) that will re-flush needles after dropping every single one due to some sort of stress (excluding the deciduous conifers of course).

Point being, down the road if you notice the needles dropping, don't freak out and throw these away. Just try to correct the issues, and hopefully they'll flush back out. With most other conifers, after the needles have dried up and dropped, that's usually it and they can't be saved.

Good luck with your forest!
 

GrimLore

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And as a side note for Oso's excellent information, and not necessarily something you need to worry about right now: Atlas cedars are one of the only conifers (that I've personally witnessed, several times) that will re-flush needles after dropping every single one due to some sort of stress

Crystal was freaked out a bit this past Winter as our Blue Atlas here all turned brown and dropped ALL foliage. As you mentioned it was stress related, due to unusual conditions this past year. The one she was most concerned about(dropped all foliage) is now just fine and growing good. There are still some brown needles but I am certain it is less then two percent so I am just letting it be... Odd as this one is in the ground and no other cedar, cypress, or juniper had such a problem.
In my reading on the matter I had seen it mentioned they just drop all on a 3 - 4 year cycle but honest I am certain that is not the case. STRESS as you stated, and they are tough enough to handle it if one has patience :)

Grimmy
 
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