Atlas Cedar - literati help

[Birchbark]

Hi folks!

This is my first post, so hope i am doing it right!

I recently acquired an atlas cedar. I have always loved true cedars and had been after one for a while. As you can see its very slender and its foliage only occupies the top, so i immediately thought...literati.

At the moment, i feel more illiterati that literati.

I have been trawling through posts, literati photos and have even delved into literati art to find some inspiration, but im really struggling to decide where to go with this!

Today i wrapped it in raffia and 6mm copper wire...began bending with an image in mind, but then hit a wall. An issue i face with pretty much all of my trees! So here i am, hoping to draw from the wisdom of this community!

With infinite possibilities, how does one decide on the form a tree should take?

Should i straighten it all out first to see what im working with?

Is the trunk to foliage ratio so off that i should bend the trunk in a way that shortens it?

Any general cedar care advice would also he hugely appreciated!

Thanks so much in advance!

Ali

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hi folks!

This is my first post, so hope i am doing it right!

I recently acquired an atlas cedar. I have always loved true cedars and had been after one for a while. As you can see its very slender and its foliage only occupies the top, so i immediately thought...literati.

At the moment, i feel more illiterati that literati.

I have been trawling through posts, literati photos and have even delved into literati art to find some inspiration, but im really struggling to decide where to go with this!

Today i wrapped it in raffia and 6mm copper wire...began bending with an image in mind, but then hit a wall. An issue i face with pretty much all of my trees! So here i am, hoping to draw from the wisdom of this community!

With infinite possibilities, how does one decide on the form a tree should take?

Should i straighten it all out first to see what im working with?

No! Less bending always better in reaching chosen destination. Wait for inspiration.

Is the trunk to foliage ratio so off that i should bend the trunk in a way that shortens it?

No! Big space of bare trunk is beginning of Literati inspiration/equation. Foliage actually should be reduced once inspiration/instruction strikes.

Any general cedar care advice would also he hugely appreciated!

Sorry have not kept cedar. Personally wonder what is best season for bending these(Cedar)? Perhaps during dormancy? Is Bonsai Mirai Live affordable for you? At least one most excellent live stream dealt with Literati creation. Highly recommended to see this. May also have info there for personal Atlas Cedar.

Thanks so much in advance!

Ali

 

[Forsoothe!]

Growing seasons around the world vary widely and it is difficult to get a perspective on what someone says when we don't know where in the world they are. If you go to the upper right hand corner and click on your Icon, you can add your location and people will be able to customize advice for you, and you might connect with another local.




<<<<< It will show here.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Mr @maroun.c is from Cedar Country. I think he has some experience to share, although, his seasons are different than ours.

I wire mine in early spring or winter, repot only in spring (summer repot = dead tree in my case) and do it in stages, like the quarter bare root repot or half bare root repot.
I'm not good at bonsai design I think, so I refrain from commenting on what to do design wise.
My wiring isn't good, but I do recommend wiring tight. To do that right, you'll need annealed copper; it'll become soft like butter after heating it thoroughly and it'll be way easier to make tight windings. If the windings ends up being loose, it'll exert force on just a few spots, causing it to possibly damage the tree more than it has to.

 

[Birchbark]

Thanks for your input. I am based in London in the UK. Hopefully it shows up now

Growing seasons around the world vary widely and it is difficult to get a perspective on what someone says when we don't know where in the world they are. If you go to the upper right hand corner and click on your Icon, you can add your location and people will be able to customize advice for you, and you might connect with another local.




<<<<< It will show here.

 

[Birchbark]

Mr @maroun.c is from Cedar Country. I think he has some experience to share, although, his seasons are different than ours.

I wire mine in early spring or winter, repot only in spring (summer repot = dead tree in my case) and do it in stages, like the quarter bare root repot or half bare root repot.
I'm not good at bonsai design I think, so I refrain from commenting on what to do design wise.
My wiring isn't good, but I do recommend wiring tight. To do that right, you'll need annealed copper; it'll become soft like butter after heating it thoroughly and it'll be way easier to make tight windings. If the windings ends up being loose, it'll exert force on just a few spots, causing it to possibly damage the tree more than it has to.

Thanks for your comments on the wire! That makes sense as it was So difficult to bend, i wondered how anyone manage it!

The wire i bought on ebay says it is annealed copper. Do i still need to heat it to soften it or does heating it make it annealed, which it already is?

Thanks!

 

[Birchbark]

No! Less bending always better in reaching chosen destination. Wait for inspiration.


No! Big space of bare trunk is beginning of Literati inspiration/equation. Foliage actually should be reduced once inspiration/instruction strikes.


Sorry have not kept cedar. Personally wonder what is best season for bending these(Cedar)? Perhaps during dormancy? Is Bonsai Mirai Live affordable for you? At least one most excellent live stream dealt with Literati creation. Highly recommended to see this. May also have info there for personal Atlas Cedar.

Thanks for your comments! Which have given me some helpful guidelines. I suppose if i minimise the bends it limits options and makes it easier to decide!

Minimising the foliage will be even more difficult i expect! I love the blue needs so getting rid of any will be painful!

 

[Paradox]

Thanks for your comments on the wire! That makes sense as it was So difficult to bend, i wondered how anyone manage it!

The wire i bought on ebay says it is annealed copper. Do i still need to heat it to soften it or does heating it make it annealed, which it already is?

Thanks!

No you don't need to heat it but don't bend it more than you need to as you apply it because it will harden after you manipulate it.

It is soft now but any banging or bending/movement will start to harden it again

This has to do with what happens to the copper when it is heated. It changes the alignment of the molecules and makes it soft. If it gets any kind of shock, knocked around, dropped or bent, the molecules realign and it rehardens

 

[sorce]

This is one of those rare situations where a branch bender would work.

Welcome to Crazy!

Just go slower than you thought you should have, with everything.

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Thanks for your comments on the wire! That makes sense as it was So difficult to bend, i wondered how anyone manage it!

The wire i bought on ebay says it is annealed copper. Do i still need to heat it to soften it or does heating it make it annealed, which it already is?

Thanks!

During shipping, copper wire gets handled roughly.
Once it arrives at your door it might have lost the softness in some spots.
Bad annealing can also be a seller issue.
If you have a blow torch, you can easily anneal it yourself: heat it up until it turns whitish or flows red, and let it cool down. Just take care not to melt it.
Experiment with a couple pieces before you do large coils. This'll help ypu develop some feel for it.
Of course you should never anneal copper while it's on your plant!

Re-annealing already annealed copper doesn't hurt it except for some oxidation on the outside. Copper aligns its atoms when it's cooled after being heated, due to some physical properties of copper itself. This makes it softer to work with. After bending, bumping or whatever, this allignment becomes chaotic and locks in place causing rigidness. So if your copper wire is feeling rigid, just stop wiring and take it off to re anneal it with some heat. You can cool it in a tub of water to make this a 15 minute practice.

For now, I'd keep the raffia on and get the wire off. Cedars aren't rapid growers once they reach a size like this, so you can wait with working it until fall or winter (which I believe to be the better seasons to do wiring).

 

[Adair M]

Ignore pretty much all if the above advice. It doesn’t sound Ike any of them have any experience with Atlas Cedar. The advice from @Wires_Guy_wires about taking it easy on the roots when repotting is good advice.

Atlas Cedars are very “sappy”. The wood is strong, and takes a long, long time to “set” into position.

The wire you used, even if it is 6 gauge, is not strong enough to put in curves and hold them. The best approach would be to make us a rig using really strong rebar, wood blocks, and a Jack and rubber pads. The idea is you tie the rebar to the trunk (padded) set a block of wood between the rebar and the trunk at the point where you want a curve, then use a guy wire (padded) to pull the other end of the trunk back towards the rebar. This may require a Jack for leverage. (Or a friend).

This rig will have to sit for three or 4 years for it to set, and even then, expect it to “relax”, so put in a bit more curve than you think it needs.

When wiring individual branches, you need to use oversized copper wire. That is, if on a JBP you would use a piece of gauge 12, for an Atlas Cedar, use gauge 10. Even then, it takes 2 or 3 times as long for the branches to set into position. Let the wire cut in a bit before you remove it. Then wire again, being careful to not place wire into the grooves from the previous wiring. The grooves will heal over.

The bark of Atlas Cedar is much like Japanese White Pine. It’s smooth and grey when young, but becomes rough and flaky with age. The problem is “age” is about 30 years!

So, for this tree, I recommend you remove that 6 gauge wire on the trunk. It’s not going to be effective, and use the rebar/wood block/guy wire method instead. It’s more effective and if properly padded with rubber, there will be no scarring. You really don’t want spiral scarring on a literati trunk where it will be in plain sight for 30 years! But, you WILL have the contraption on the tree for several years.

 

[Birchbark]

Ignore pretty much all if the above advice. It doesn’t sound Ike any of them have any experience with Atlas Cedar. The advice from @Wires_Guy_wires about taking it easy on the roots when repotting is good advice.

Atlas Cedars are very “sappy”. The wood is strong, and takes a long, long time to “set” into position.

The wire you used, even if it is 6 gauge, is not strong enough to put in curves and hold them. The best approach would be to make us a rig using really strong rebar, wood blocks, and a Jack and rubber pads. The idea is you tie the rebar to the trunk (padded) set a block of wood between the rebar and the trunk at the point where you want a curve, then use a guy wire (padded) to pull the other end of the trunk back towards the rebar. This may require a Jack for leverage. (Or a friend).

This rig will have to sit for three or 4 years for it to set, and even then, expect it to “relax”, so put in a bit more curve than you think it needs.

When wiring individual branches, you need to use oversized copper wire. That is, if on a JBP you would use a piece of gauge 12, for an Atlas Cedar, use gauge 10. Even then, it takes 2 or 3 times as long for the branches to set into position. Let the wire cut in a bit before you remove it. Then wire again, being careful to not place wire into the grooves from the previous wiring. The grooves will heal over.

The bark of Atlas Cedar is much like Japanese White Pine. It’s smooth and grey when young, but becomes rough and flaky with age. The problem is “age” is about 30 years!

So, for this tree, I recommend you remove that 6 gauge wire on the trunk. It’s not going to be effective, and use the rebar/wood block/guy wire method instead. It’s more effective and if properly padded with rubber, there will be no scarring. You really don’t want spiral scarring on a literati trunk where it will be in plain sight for 30 years! But, you WILL have the contraption on the tree for several years.

Thanks for youre detailed advice!!

I had read about the rebar method, but thought it to cumbersome and hoped the wire would work. But the wire has proven too difficult to handle properly and less full proof, so i think i will do as you have suggested and wait till autumn.

With the rebar method, it sounds as though you could put in some pretty extreme bends, like a shark 90 degree bend without having to leave any curve in the trunk. Is this possible with a cedar or would it just snap?

Ive attached some photos with the kind of bend i mean circled.

I am also concerned that the lower foliage will slowly die off, which is what i have red. Would it be worth wiring them out now so they get more light?

Thanks!

 

[Adair M]

The sharper the bend, obviously the more likely it will break. It’s possible to put in some bend, wait a week, bend some more, wait a week, then bend, etc. How much can you do? I depends! There’s no way know for sure. If you hear cracking… stop!

The professionals will take risks and put in severe bends. They’ll have 20 or 30 of these, and just go for it. If they have a few die, no big deal, it’s just a cost of doing business. You, I expect, would rather be safe. That’s ok, bonsai is a marathon, not a sprint.