Atlas cedar - to repot or not

Adair M

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No it's just that you don't have any idea what you're reading...They are fine after they have been root pruned a number of times. ....as I said. But maybe because you buy your trees already developed you can't imagine what it's like starting from scratch like us poor people.
Interesting concept...

I purchased both my Atlas Cedars from Jim Gremel. Jim is a student of Boon, as am I. We both repot our trees using the same soil, and same technique. Now, it’s true that Jim grew both these trees in the ground to develop them, and then “collected” them, and put them in bonsai pots. I wasn’t there, but I’m pretty sure he would have done it as Boon teaches. I’ve been to Jim’s home and seen how he operates.

But, hey, I’m not omniscient like you are Michael.
 

electronfusion

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Sooooo, assuming someone went about this completely wrong, trunk-chopped, bare-rooted and transplanted into fresh bonsai soil, removing roughly 10% of the roots, and roughly 90% of the foliage on day 1, which was 2 days ago, in 100F weather, how soon would it become apparent whether this hypothetical tree is going to survive?
 

greenleaves

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This thread came up in my feed, so I’ll post an update:

I repotted this tree back in early March. It was pretty potbound. I half bare rooted the section of the rootball on the right. It’s in a slightly larger pot now:

View attachment 305442

After I repotted, it did drop the two year old needles, but retained the needles it made last year.

There are buds everywhere, and it is now budding out profusely all over.


ah good to know! Adair that tree looks great. I love the sort of 'stacked-pancake' look on the elephanty bark of these. So I should have updated my post, but I was waiting to confirm the result: that is, I did the repot back in March and the tree didnt lose any needles since. Its pushing growth now and looks to be quite happy post-op.
 

Adair M

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ah good to know! Adair that tree looks great. I love the sort of 'stacked-pancake' look on the elephanty bark of these. So I should have updated my post, but I was waiting to confirm the result: that is, I did the repot back in March and the tree didnt lose any needles since. Its pushing growth now and looks to be quite happy post-op.
That’s the juvenile bark. They will develop more of a rough, plated bark texture, but it takes 20 to 25 years for that to start. Then it takes a decade or more to develop.
 

Adair M

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So then stop replying to my comments and trying to be a smart arse maybe?
If you don’t want me to reply to your comments, stop insulting me. You implied that because I have nice, established trees, that I don’t know anything about potting trees from nursery stock. That’s based on an assumption.

The truth of the matter is I’ve been doing bonsai since I was 16 years old. That’s 50 years. My first tree was a procumbens juniper I bought at a landscape nursery. Just like thousands of other beginners. I have learned a bit about bonsai since then, and I try to pass on what I’ve learned over the decades I’ve been doing this.

I teach classes at a local bonsai shop on how to transition bonsai out of raw nursery containers and into bonsai pots. Students come from all over the State to attend my class.

I don’t know how old you are Michael, but I’m willing to bet that I’ve been messing with bonsai since before you were born. I haven’t always had the means to work with developed material. Today, I work with whatever material I like.

When I post about something, I like to use an example. I have found that pictures help people understand better. Whenever possible, I try to illustrate using one of my own trees.
 

MichaelS

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Adair M, post: 748623, member: 13405"]
If you don’t want me to reply to your comments, stop insulting me. You implied that because I have nice, established trees, that I don’t know anything about potting trees from nursery stock. That’s based on an assumption.
Nothing to do with assumption about your lack of general knowledge about nursery stock. It's much more specific than that. You made the assertion that cedars repot just like any other conifer. That is plainly wrong and if you believe it you obviously have not had the experience of the cedar growers here - where they have been grown by just about everyone and since just after WW2. There have been MANY instances of trees losing all their foliage (when have you seen a pine do that?) and sometimes recovering and sometimes dying off completely. This can be directly attributed to the fact that they resent root disturbance much more than pines do because they do not have the root ramification of pines. Therefore, more care in repotting is called for and especially with younger material that has not yet formed a compact well ramified root system.
I am well aware that you know what you're doing and have a lot of experience and do not dispute that, but the comment ''the same as other conifers'' is simply not accurate.
Sorry for pointing it out.
 

Adair M

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Nothing to do with assumption about your lack of general knowledge about nursery stock. It's much more specific than that. You made the assertion that cedars repot just like any other conifer. That is plainly wrong and if you believe it you obviously have not had the experience of the cedar growers here - where they have been grown by just about everyone and since just after WW2. There have been MANY instances of trees losing all their foliage (when have you seen a pine do that?) and sometimes recovering and sometimes dying off completely. This can be directly attributed to the fact that they resent root disturbance much more than pines do because they do not have the root ramification of pines. Therefore, more care in repotting is called for and especially with younger material that has not yet formed a compact well ramified root system.
I am well aware that you know what you're doing and have a lot of experience and do not dispute that, but the comment ''the same as other conifers'' is simply not accurate.
Sorry for pointing it out.
Thank you, Michael for the informative post. I will admit that all the Atlas Cedars I have worked with were special grown with bonsai in mind. Jim Gremel grows his trees in the ground for 15 years, but they were planted in raised beds of pumice. (At least originally). And he would “root prune” with a shovel every couple years. Maybe that was enough to keep the root systems compacted.

otherwise, the Timing, methods, soils, etc. are the same for Atlas Cedar as they are for pines. At least for me.

I also work with the green ones, not the blue ones. That may make a difference, I don’t know.
 

kalare

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I have two atlas cedars that had no root work done aside from being potted from the field, one from Jim and one for Oregon. Both half bare rooted immediately (I'm an SOB as well) and have been doing perfectly fine and growing very well.
 
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Sooooo, assuming someone went about this completely wrong, trunk-chopped, bare-rooted and transplanted into fresh bonsai soil, removing roughly 10% of the roots, and roughly 90% of the foliage on day 1, which was 2 days ago, in 100F weather, how soon would it become apparent whether this hypothetical tree is going to survive?
Okay, I have to ask--how did this turn our and what did you learn? I assume this was a cedar you were describing?
 

electronfusion

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Okay, I have to ask--how did this turn our and what did you learn? I assume this was a cedar you were describing?
I assume I was lucky. Or, I learned you can do a lot to a tree if it's in really good shape, having not been abused at all for many years beforehand, and if aftercare is good. It's still a happy tree. Here's a photo of it today. Not a bonsai yet. Still looks more or less like it did after that initial chop from 6 feet down to about 18 inches. But it seems healthy. I've removed a few crossing branches and strong upper branches since, and it has replaced those with a roughly equal amount of new growth. Now I'm just letting it grow out. Maybe in a decade or so it'll have some girth to it.
 

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