Austrian black pine help!

[Eckhoffw]

Ok, here we are at the start of summer.
Ive been trying to research learn how to go about candle pruning this guy.

As of now, I’m thinking of selecting crown candles to keep and how much to clip these. Pruning back to average candle length - balance vigor.
So, should I do it now?
Any tips?
Thanks!!!!!!!

 

[River's Edge]

What are your plans for the tree? Are you happy with the trunk diameter? Do you wish to create some taper? Do you intend to wire for additional movement? Have you identified branches for sacrifice or new apical sacrifice?
If you are simply asking how to prune a single flush pine than that is another topic. The answer depends on your goals for the tree, individual branches and overall design. Candle pruning will be partial removal of the candle by pinching or cutting a portion of the candle. The timing for the best response is probably a week or two from now. But wether it should be done is the most important question?
When I look at the picture I see a young tree that still needs the trunk to thicken, movement and taper to be added and primary branches to be grown and wired in position over the next ten years! The tree is in nursery soil and nursery pot so I suspect that nebari and root ball need to be developed as well.
If this tree was set in front of me at this time of year I would do the following!
1. Add wire to create movement and wire up a potential new apical leader for future taper.

2. Thin candles on the current apex to create an apical leader out of the top to speed up trunk thickening over the current growing season and possibly for the next three or four years!

3. I would repot the tree next spring in Bonsai soil and either plant in the ground or use a grow box for the next five or ten years of development.

However you may have something else in mind and a very different point of view.

 

[Eckhoffw]

What are your plans for the tree? Are you happy with the trunk diameter? Do you wish to create some taper? Do you intend to wire for additional movement? Have you identified branches for sacrifice or new apical sacrifice?
If you are simply asking how to prune a single flush pine than that is another topic. The answer depends on your goals for the tree, individual branches and overall design. Candle pruning will be partial removal of the candle by pinching or cutting a portion of the candle. The timing for the best response is probably a week or two from now. But wether it should be done is the most important question?
When I look at the picture I see a young tree that still needs the trunk to thicken, movement and taper to be added and primary branches to be grown and wired in position over the next ten years! The tree is in nursery soil and nursery pot so I suspect that nebari and root ball need to be developed as well.
If this tree was set in front of me at this time of year I would do the following!
1. Add wire to create movement and wire up a potential new apical leader for future taper.

2. Thin candles on the current apex to create an apical leader out of the top to speed up trunk thickening over the current growing season and possibly for the next three or four years!

3. I would repot the tree next spring in Bonsai soil and either plant in the ground or use a grow box for the next five or ten years of development.

However you may have something else in mind and a very different point of view.

Thank you for you response. In a nutshell, I would like to thicken the trunk while keeping the branching in control.
I plan to grow it out in a wooden box next spring. I’ve pulled branches down with guy wires, But I agree it would be nice to get more trunk movement.
Not sure how many candles to leave at top.
Totally up for suggestions at this point!!

 

[River's Edge]

Thank you for you response. In a nutshell, I would like to thicken the trunk while keeping the branching in control.
I plan to grow it out in a wooden box next spring. I’ve pulled branches down with guy wires, But I agree it would be nice to get more trunk movement.
Not sure how many candles to leave at top.
Totally up for suggestions at this point!!

I believe that you may have one branch that will be part of final design and one that will be the continuation of the trunk line to create taper. The choice will depend on how thick you wish the trunk to be and the height of final design you are shooting for! It could also be that none of the current branches will remain as part of a final design.
What is the current thickness of the trunk at the base? The base being the best spread for nebari? I am guessing that this is not known for sure at this point! Simply because the tree grew in a nursery pot and repotting has not taken place to identify the best level of roots for nebari.
What are the distances of the whorls from the base? Are the first two branches more than three inches from the base? How high up is the second and third branch? This is important information if you think the current branches will be part of the design.
From my point of view the majority of design branches will come from changing apical leaders when developing taper and cutting back the apical sacrifices will create new shoots from which to select the design branches. So in short I would not be wiring down branches for design purposes at this stage of development.
I understand this seems like a lot of detail, but the information all plays a part in decision making for development and eventually design.
From the picture I would suspect your tree is between three and five years old. I expect to develop design branches well after that point between 7-10 years of age at the earliest. At this stage the trunk should be between two and three inches thick with nebari well developed!
If you provide me with current dimensions I could suggest at least one option. However it is best to plan for what your vision is for the tree. Really the tree appears to be young enough that almost anything is possible over the next twenty years in terms of development and design.

 

[Eckhoffw]

I believe that you may have one branch that will be part of final design and one that will be the continuation of the trunk line to create taper. The choice will depend on how thick you wish the trunk to be and the height of final design you are shooting for! It could also be that none of the current branches will remain as part of a final design.
What is the current thickness of the trunk at the base? The base being the best spread for nebari? I am guessing that this is not known for sure at this point! Simply because the tree grew in a nursery pot and repotting has not taken place to identify the best level of roots for nebari.
What are the distances of the whorls from the base? Are the first two branches more than three inches from the base? How high up is the second and third branch? This is important information if you think the current branches will be part of the design.
From my point of view the majority of design branches will come from changing apical leaders when developing taper and cutting back the apical sacrifices will create new shoots from which to select the design branches. So in short I would not be wiring down branches for design purposes at this stage of development.
I understand this seems like a lot of detail, but the information all plays a part in decision making for development and eventually design.
From the picture I would suspect your tree is between three and five years old. I expect to develop design branches well after that point between 7-10 years of age at the earliest. At this stage the trunk should be between two and three inches thick with nebari well developed!
If you provide me with current dimensions I could suggest at least one option. However it is best to plan for what your vision is for the tree. Really the tree appears to be young enough that almost anything is possible over the next twenty years in terms of development and design.

Wow! Thank you for you help! I will take some measurements, have a think, and get back to you!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Rivers edge advice right on target as usual. IF any branches planned as keepers should be wired for movement now. Big gap between 1st and 2nd group of branches so would suggest 1st branches will be base for building future tree and rest is just for developing trunk.

 

[River's Edge]

Rivers edge advice right on target as usual. IF any branches planned as keepers should be wired for movement now. Big gap between 1st and 2nd group of branches so would suggest 1st branches will be base for building future tree and rest is just for developing trunk.

It is surprising how many new shoots can be produced in the lower portion of the tree by using sacrifice branches and reducing apical leaders at the right time of year. One of the concepts that can be difficult to grasp in the beginning of working with pines. This tree pictured below was developed from a typical three or four year old pine similar in shape to yours. Note the amount of low branching present after development techniques have been applied for three years. A person now has as many options to choose from as desired in the bottom 12 to 18 inches of the tree! If you look closely, you can see the preponderance of shoots that formed even on the apical or upper most sacrifice leader. The original whorl is still in that bush, just reduced to ensure that knuckles or inverse taper does not form on the trunk. However, now one can select primary branches on the outside curves and with desired spacing. The new shoots are very easy to wire and position at this point. no struggling with older thicker branches all formed at the same level in the original whorls. The older branches have served their purpose to strengthen, thicken and support the health of the tree until new shoots in better positions are available. Wiring of the trunk early on in development has created the movement for design and branch positioning. ( hidden within the bush) The trunk has healed from this work and the tree is still young enough for significantly back budding to occur on the trunk. Now that you are working with new shoots you have many more years of back budding on the new branches to create density of foliage. This tree is seven years old at the time the picture was taken! Hope the above notes and picture help to explain the point I was trying to make in the other posts. " Most often it is better to develop options rather than select from the original juvenile form of a pine tree."
Special note: If one focuses solely on trunk girth for the first ten years then back budding like this is almost impossible on the lower portion of the tree. That is why a combination of growing and pruning techniques is worth considering rather than just in ground trunk growth as the first and only focus. Their are advantages to slowing trunk growth in order to develop nebari and lower branch options. plenty of time to thicken trunk after these areas have been developed. The sacrifice leader can be maintained or replaced as taper is built from the ground up! Each new apical leader can be left with one or more lateral shoots for new sacrifice leaders after removing the original. The good news is that there is plenty of time in each growing season to figure out the next step when developing pines. One of the best written sources available on this topic are the Pine Development series written by Jonas Dupuich and available in the archives portion of his Bonsai Tonight website. Jonas is an excellent writer and can explain things much better than I can.

 

[Eckhoffw]

It is surprising how many new shoots can be produced in the lower portion of the tree by using sacrifice branches and reducing apical leaders at the right time of year. One of the concepts that can be difficult to grasp in the beginning of working with pines. This tree pictured below was developed from a typical three or four year old pine similar in shape to yours. Note the amount of low branching present after development techniques have been applied for three years. A person now has as many options to choose from as desired in the bottom 12 to 18 inches of the tree! If you look closely, you can see the preponderance of shoots that formed even on the apical or upper most sacrifice leader. The original whorl is still in that bush, just reduced to ensure that knuckles or inverse taper does not form on the trunk. However, now one can select primary branches on the outside curves and with desired spacing. The new shoots are very easy to wire and position at this point. no struggling with older thicker branches all formed at the same level in the original whorls. The older branches have served their purpose to strengthen, thicken and support the health of the tree until new shoots in better positions are available. Wiring of the trunk early on in development has created the movement for design and branch positioning. ( hidden within the bush) The trunk has healed from this work and the tree is still young enough for significantly back budding to occur on the trunk. Now that you are working with new shoots you have many more years of back budding on the new branches to create density of foliage. This tree is seven years old at the time the picture was taken! Hope the above notes and picture help to explain the point I was trying to make in the other posts. " Most often it is better to develop options rather than select from the original juvenile form of a pine tree."
Special note: If one focuses solely on trunk girth for the first ten years then back budding like this is almost impossible on the lower portion of the tree. That is why a combination of growing and pruning techniques is worth considering rather than just in ground trunk growth as the first and only focus. Their are advantages to slowing trunk growth in order to develop nebari and lower branch options. plenty of time to thicken trunk after these areas have been developed. The sacrifice leader can be maintained or replaced as taper is built from the ground up! Each new apical leader can be left with one or more lateral shoots for new sacrifice leaders after removing the original. The good news is that there is plenty of time in each growing season to figure out the next step when developing pines. One of the best written sources available on this topic are the Pine Development series written by Jonas Dupuich and available in the archives portion of his Bonsai Tonight website. Jonas is an excellent writer and can explain things much better than I can.
View attachment 378693

Thank you soo much fir your help!
I think I have a better understanding on how to proceed.

 

[AnacortesSteve]

There are several stages to a bonsai, all the candle pruning stuff you are thinking of is on a finished tree to keep it small and increase ramification, as Rivers Edge eluded you tree needs growth and options. I raise pre-bonsai JBP and after doing the cuttings and then growing them out they have amazing nebari and almost no trunk so lots of low budding, things you want in a small tree.
I shave off 2/3 of the trunk area needles on my Italian Stone Pines and this creates lots of budding so again it gives the final bonsai artist lots of options.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

It is surprising how many new shoots can be produced in the lower portion of the tree by using sacrifice branches and reducing apical leaders at the right time of year. One of the concepts that can be difficult to grasp in the beginning of working with pines. This tree pictured below was developed from a typical three or four year old pine similar in shape to yours. Note the amount of low branching present after development techniques have been applied for three years. A person now has as many options to choose from as desired in the bottom 12 to 18 inches of the tree! If you look closely, you can see the preponderance of shoots that formed even on the apical or upper most sacrifice leader. The original whorl is still in that bush, just reduced to ensure that knuckles or inverse taper does not form on the trunk. However, now one can select primary branches on the outside curves and with desired spacing. The new shoots are very easy to wire and position at this point. no struggling with older thicker branches all formed at the same level in the original whorls. The older branches have served their purpose to strengthen, thicken and support the health of the tree until new shoots in better positions are available. Wiring of the trunk early on in development has created the movement for design and branch positioning. ( hidden within the bush) The trunk has healed from this work and the tree is still young enough for significantly back budding to occur on the trunk. Now that you are working with new shoots you have many more years of back budding on the new branches to create density of foliage. This tree is seven years old at the time the picture was taken! Hope the above notes and picture help to explain the point I was trying to make in the other posts. " Most often it is better to develop options rather than select from the original juvenile form of a pine tree."
Special note: If one focuses solely on trunk girth for the first ten years then back budding like this is almost impossible on the lower portion of the tree. That is why a combination of growing and pruning techniques is worth considering rather than just in ground trunk growth as the first and only focus. Their are advantages to slowing trunk growth in order to develop nebari and lower branch options. plenty of time to thicken trunk after these areas have been developed. The sacrifice leader can be maintained or replaced as taper is built from the ground up! Each new apical leader can be left with one or more lateral shoots for new sacrifice leaders after removing the original. The good news is that there is plenty of time in each growing season to figure out the next step when developing pines. One of the best written sources available on this topic are the Pine Development series written by Jonas Dupuich and available in the archives portion of his Bonsai Tonight website. Jonas is an excellent writer and can explain things much better than I can.
View attachment 378693Can either of both of you 2 experts expand on some of this . Frank you mentioned back bidding after reducing the apicisl leader . I get the grow box and let them grow . But have struggled to get the results in your pic . I live Canada Ontario zone 4 so don’t have the growing season frank does . Manly grow Scot’s and aust Pine for old hardiness . Frank noticed I another thread . You keep your boxed pines grouped together . Surprised me thinking they need more space for light . Do you guys pluck or cut old needles to promote sunlight for back budding . Any advice on fertilizer at this grow stage . Sorry to ask so many questions but you obviously know what your doing . Hope to improve my trees In development .Tbe timing and work needed to achieve the back budding seem my main interest thank you

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I well of course check out the recommended pine development you suggested . Like I said I seem to struggle achieving the back budding

 

[River's Edge]

" Frank you mentioned back bidding after reducing the apicisl leader . I get the grow box and let them grow . But have struggled to get the results in your pic . I live Canada Ontario zone 4 so don’t have the growing season frank does . Manly grow Scot’s and aust Pine for old hardiness . Frank noticed I another thread . You keep your boxed pines grouped together . Surprised me thinking they need more space for light . Do you guys pluck or cut old needles to promote sunlight for back budding . Any advice on fertilizer at this grow stage . Sorry to ask so many questions but you obviously know what your doing . Hope to improve my trees In development .Tbe timing and work needed to achieve the back budding seem my main interest thank you"

A shorter growing season will affect the results for sure. I would not choose to do JBP in zone 4. Austrian Pine is a good choice.
My site is full exposure south with plenty of sunlight. The grow boxes or Anderson Flats are spaced 3 feet apart with plenty of air movement and light. The boxes are also rotated twice during the growing season to aid in more uniform development. the pictures may be deceiving as there are quite a few grouped. The area within the photo is larger than it appears.
I reduce needles in areas that are shading areas that will be part of the final design. ( mainly lower branches)
I use organic fertilizers and fertilize heavily throughout the entire growing season during the years of development. Basically the first 15 plus years for pines.

Back budding is the result of a combination of factors, not one step.
1.Maintain a healthy and vigorous tree, grow out extension of apical leader and or sacrifice branches, reduce at the proper time. Lots of water and fertilizer.
I decide on the reduction timing on the basis of if I have reached the desired thickness with the apical leader or sacrifice branch. Once that has been accomplished then I choose the following timing to cut back. I wait for the spring candles to extend and the needles to start to stand away from the candles. then I reduce, this is usually May in my climate. This is for JBP and JRP which are multi flush pines. I have also used this approach on Austrian pines in healthy condition with success.
2.Thinning needles to reduce shade in areas you wish to strengthen.
3. Wire down branches that you wish to back bud on, this decreases the effect of auxin and increase the effect of cytokines for side shoot and bud production.
4. Selective needle reduction to increase the chance of buds occurring in preferred locations.
5. Correct cut back process on apical leaders and sacrifice branches. cutting back beyond candles into the existing needles but always leaving enough foliage for the health of the tree.

Remember you are working in a colder zone, with single flush pines. Adapt your process to suit. For example you may wish to grow out for longer periods of time and plan reductions every second or third season to maintain a vigorous growth pattern.
Pinus Niger is one that I tend to prune less often for cut back as opposed to JBP and JRP that can handle some cut back almost every year! For apical leaders and sacrifice branches they may grow for four or five years before it is decided that they should be reduced and another used to take it place in the development process.

 

[0soyoung]

auxin and increase the effect of cytokines cytokinins for side shoo

Cytokines are an animal thing.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

" Frank you mentioned back bidding after reducing the apicisl leader . I get the grow box and let them grow . But have struggled to get the results in your pic . I live Canada Ontario zone 4 so don’t have the growing season frank does . Manly grow Scot’s and aust Pine for old hardiness . Frank noticed I another thread . You keep your boxed pines grouped together . Surprised me thinking they need more space for light . Do you guys pluck or cut old needles to promote sunlight for back budding . Any advice on fertilizer at this grow stage . Sorry to ask so many questions but you obviously know what your doing . Hope to improve my trees In development .Tbe timing and work needed to achieve the back budding seem my main interest thank you"

A shorter growing season will affect the results for sure. I would not choose to do JBP in zone 4. Austrian Pine is a good choice.
My site is full exposure south with plenty of sunlight. The grow boxes or Anderson Flats are spaced 3 feet apart with plenty of air movement and light. The boxes are also rotated twice during the growing season to aid in more uniform development. the pictures may be deceiving as there are quite a few grouped. The area within the photo is larger than it appears.
I reduce needles in areas that are shading areas that will be part of the final design. ( mainly lower branches)
I use organic fertilizers and fertilize heavily throughout the entire growing season during the years of development. Basically the first 15 plus years for pines.

Back budding is the result of a combination of factors, not one step.
1.Maintain a healthy and vigorous tree, grow out extension of apical leader and or sacrifice branches, reduce at the proper time. Lots of water and fertilizer.
I decide on the reduction timing on the basis of if I have reached the desired thickness with the apical leader or sacrifice branch. Once that has been accomplished then I choose the following timing to cut back. I wait for the spring candles to extend and the needles to start to stand away from the candles. then I reduce, this is usually May in my climate. This is for JBP and JRP which are multi flush pines. I have also used this approach on Austrian pines in healthy condition with success.
2.Thinning needles to reduce shade in areas you wish to strengthen.
3. Wire down branches that you wish to back bud on, this decreases the effect of auxin and increase the effect of cytokines for side shoot and bud production.
4. Selective needle reduction to increase the chance of buds occurring in preferred locations.
5. Correct cut back process on apical leaders and sacrifice branches. cutting back beyond candles into the existing needles but always leaving enough foliage for the health of the tree.

Remember you are working in a colder zone, with single flush pines. Adapt your process to suit. For example you may wish to grow out for longer periods of time and plan reductions every second or third season to maintain a vigorous growth pattern.
Pinus Niger is one that I tend to prune less often for cut back as opposed to JBP and JRP that can handle some cut back almost every year! For apical leaders and sacrifice branches they may grow for four or five years before it is decided that they should be reduced and another used to take it place in the development process.

Thank you very much frank . Your knowledge and proven success is greatly appreciated . I was on the right track maybe I just don’t grow the apical leader long enough before replacing . One more thing I have some JRP seeds coming . I’m getting old to start from seed but do you think they will be more aggressive growing then Scot’s or Nigra I know you don’t live in this zone but have JRP experience I have none thank you for all your advice always great . To get advice from a true pro that has the kinks worked out

 

[River's Edge]

Thank you very much frank . Your knowledge and proven success is greatly appreciated . I was on the right track maybe I just don’t grow the apical leader long enough before replacing . One more thing I have some JRP seeds coming . I’m getting old to start from seed but do you think they will be more aggressive growing then Scot’s or Nigra I know you don’t live in this zone but have JRP experience I have none thank you for all your advice always great . To get advice from a true pro that has the kinks worked out

JRP are fast growers, but have a tendency to be slender and slower to thicken in the trunk. I also find the JBP bark up quicker in my experience. If you are after a thicker trunk be sure to allow more time in development. Also I think it helps to put more of an emphasis on the root work early on for JRP. The more advanced nebari early on will aid the trunk development. If growing the JRP I would plan on medium to larger style due to the natural growth pattern and longer needles.
My preference is to work the roots annually for the first three or four years and make the most of their prime recovery years to develop the nebari and flare at the same time as extending the trunk line for apical sacrifice!
My site is relatively low elevation ( 600 feet above sea level) so the JBP tend to out perform the JRP that are more at home in higher elevations.
Age has no bearing on when to start seed if you accept that others will benefit from your work! Given that Bonsai normally take several decades to develop and refine one needs to take the long view.
Have fun on the journey!

 

[River's Edge]

Cytokines are an animal thing.

Thanks Osoyoung. must keep these things straight. Can you remember where I put my cut paste?

 

[0soyoung]

Thanks Osoyoung. must keep these things straight. Can you remember where I put my cut paste?

I'm sure you stuck it somewhere that you wouldn't forget. That's where I put all my stuff.

BTW, Good expo on p. Nigra.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Thank soo much @River's Edge for the slew of advice.
Ive been sleeping in this thread -and others- as the trees sleep in a snow bank.

Ive realized that I didn’t get back with this info on my pine.
Tromped through the snow to measure up,
1.25” trunk.
6”to first whorl.
12” to second whorl.


24” total height.
So far I’ve come up with the plan to deal with roots and repot into cedar grow box.
Then, allow leader to run along with other sacrifice branches.
So Would you wire up a new leader while leaving the current apical leader to grow?

I would like to get a 3” trunk out it, and in the end be about the same 2’ height.
Thanks again.

 

[River's Edge]

So Would you wire up a new leader while leaving the current apical leader to grow?

Yes, and the sooner the better, because it give you a chance to introduce not just taper but direction and movement within the new apical leader. keep in mind that the next apical leader will be a shorter distance than the previous one. So no need to wire distance other than the expected length of the next apical section. Often when wiring a new apical leader another branch in the same whorl is wired down for a possible primary branch and or a possible side sacrifice branch to use when the apical sections are finished. one needs to keep the overall plan in mind not just one step at a time or you will lose opportunities.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Yes, and the sooner the better, because it give you a chance to introduce not just taper but direction and movement within the new apical leader. keep in mind that the next apical leader will be a shorter distance than the previous one. So no need to wire distance other than the expected length of the next apical section. Often when wiring a new apical leader another branch in the same whorl is wired down for a possible primary branch and or a possible side sacrifice branch to use when the apical sections are finished. one needs to keep the overall plan in mind not just one step at a time or you will lose opportunities.