Autumn moon maple start

ryancalvert

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Hi all,

First time poster here and new to bonsai. I've been trying to grow Autumn Moon from seed (ordering online) for a year now but could get none of them to start, so I went ahead and ordered this little one. The main trunk is about 12" before the newer shoots at the top. From everything I've read and looked at the Y will have to go, but I'm wondering if I should do anything to introduce some movement to the trunk this winter. Also, I assume the trunk won't thicken much in that current pot, but should I wait until late winter/early spring to change to a larger one?

I live in Pacifica on the coast in California, so the weather doesn't get too cold. Not sure if that changes what I should be doing over the winter but seemed useful to mention.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Thank you.

Maple 2.JPG
 

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0soyoung

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You've pretty much got it.

I'm not sure that Autumn Moon reproduces true, but what you've bought gives you about a 3 year head start over starting from seed. IMHO, you will want to air layer a branch or two after a year, or so, more of growing. Then you'll have some on their own roots for bonsai. It is good to do this before thinking about layering the tree off its grafted roots. Meanwhile it gets thicker and you learn about the relative strength of this cultivar on its own roots as opposed to on grafted roots. Layering the trunk off these grafted roots means the grafted roots must get by on stored starches in the process - if something goes wrong you loose the whole tree. I'm not suggesting that you should fear this, but approach it prudently, like lots of other things in bonsai.

Lastly, get more trees. If nothing else, more trees will keep you from loving this one to death. ;)
 

ryancalvert

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Thank you both for your replies. @0soyoung - I am new to air layering as well and am excited to try on this maple. I had never heard the issue of the grafted roots using stored starches, but I really appreciate you sharing that. I was just thinking that the graft is quite obvious and might not look so good many years down the line.

Can you tell which part of the tree would be best to air layer at this point, or should I wait for a year or so before deciding that? Mainly wondering if the air layer should be performed on new growth or older growth.

Totally hoping to get more trees as well! We also have a Yoshino Flowering Cherry that I'd love to take a cutting or air layer from. Spring/summer project I would assume.
 

0soyoung

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I think you need to let it grow for at least a year yet, before trying to air layer a branch.

Trees compartmentalize damage (CODIT). When one removes a ring of bark (known as girdling the stem) some of the xylem cells near the exposed wood surface get plugged by this natural process. On a thick (3/8th inch, say) stem or larger, this doesn't really matter. But for a thin stem it can affect virtually all the xylem in that region. The result is water no longer gets to the foliage above, so it desiccates and dies. I don't know precisely the thickness needed, but I think your chances of success will be much better if you wait another year.

On the other hand, you could try to root a few cuttings this next year. Your tree will pop buds and will extend new growth in spring (2019). The extension will stop around May. When you see this, prune off the end, making sure that you leave at least a pair of leaves on the tree side of the cut (after a while, you should see the buds at the bases of the two leaves start pushing two new stems - this is how you make ramification - prune).

With the piece you removed, you should immediately cut it into pieces with a leaf (pair) at the top of each. You'll apply rooting hormone to the bottom and then stick it into a rooting medium. There are rooting plugs and other media that you can use. Unlike an air layer where water is supplied by the mother plant, a cutting must continue on the water in the wood. So, with a cutting, you will need to make some kind of terrarium for it so that water won't be lost in transpiration. There are rooting boxes with lids that you can buy for this OR you can do something like cover a pot with a plastic bag to make one. However you choose to do it, keep the cuttings in indirect light. Check on them every few days. There is a high risk of fungus eating the leaves inside the terrarium - I spray with a solution of 2 tablespoons 3% hydrogen peroxide (from the grocery/pharmacy) in a quart of water and reclose the terrarium.

While I think this will be a fun and informative exercise for you next year, be aware that your cutting efforts will most likely fail. Many species root easily and don't even require a terrarium for the process (e.g., many junipers). Generic green acer palmatum roots fairly easily and so do many acer shirasawanum. I'm not sure about autumn moon specifically, nor Yoshino Flowering Cherry, so you might find out. At any rate, if you get one rooted on your first try you should beam with pride. You'll know it has rooted when you see new growth sprouting from it.

Do your research.
Plan
Get the materials you need

Then have fun next year !!!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@ryancalvert - welcome to BNut.

With the maple seed you planted, it is very common for the maple seeds to wait to germinate until the second growing season. Just leave the flats or pots with seed, outdoors to experience another winter, then keep them watered well through next spring, do not discard until well into the second summer. Some trees require more than one stratification treatment. Think of this as needing a double dormancy. Maples, hornbeams, some junipers, and a fair number of other trees have more complicated requirements needed to get seed to sprout, so don't give up on your maple seed.

For a number of reasons, the majority of landscape nurseries propagate maples via grafting. Grafted trees very rarely make acceptable bonsai. Sometimes the graft heals to be invisible, but the match in growth rates between the scion and understock needs to be fairly close. Your tree appears to be grafted.

This is the reason most will tell you that you need to air layer the top off of your maple, or to root cuttings. The alternative is to ignore the graft, and just hope the graft heals to the point it becomes invisible. It may take 10 years, but it can happen. Good news is the understock is usually the normal green form of Japanese maple, which grows fairly robustly. 'Autumn Moon' as the scion is a variety that grows pretty much as large and as rapidly as the normal green form of Japanese maple. I would say you have a 50:50 chance that 10 years from now the graft union will not be noticable. Best case, you don't loose several years of growth, taking time to air layer or root from cuttings. Worst case, in 10 years you will still be able to see the graft union, but if everything else about the tree is good, you can be quite proud of the work you have done. The graft union scar may always detract from the appreciation of the tree when displayed in public shows. But if it doesn't bother you, it is fine.

If at all possible, only purchase maples propagated from seed, or by cuttings. If the maple is a named cultivar like Acer palmatum 'Autumn Moon' you can be guaranteed that it is not from seed. A few bonsai orientated nurseries will propagate named maples from cuttings. One good nursery to shop is Evergreen Gardenworks. They have at least 12 different named maple cultivars propagated by cuttings, I strongly recommend getting a few from them. They have very young trees, in 2 inch or 4 inch pots for modest prices, and older stock in 1 gallon containers at a still quite modest $35 to $65 price range. They have more developed trees, further on their way to bonsai, but you need to email or call about these and do expect much heftier price tags.

Also at Evergreen Gardenworks is a wonderful collection of articles written by the owner Brent Walston, about growing different young material up to the point where it is ready to become bonsai. There are lots of bonsai articles out there, Brent's articles are rare, articles about bringing seedlings up to be pre-bonsai. and get them ready to transition to bonsai. He has a few on building maple trunks. You would do well to read his Articles Archive.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/articles.htm
 

ryancalvert

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Thank you both for the thoughtful and detailed replies. Excited to take a look at Evergreen for both information and trees.
 

AlainK

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I've been trying to grow Autumn Moon from seed


Acer palmatum 'Autumn Moon'

I think you meant Acer shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon'...

I have three seedlings grown from seeds I picked on one I keep in a big pot, all three grew surprisingly fast but none of them have the particular colours of the mother tree, they look more like the plain species of shirasawanum. They could even have hybridized (?).

They were stratified in the winter of 2016, and sown in the spring of 2017.

April 2017:

acershir-a.moon-sem1_170401a.jpg acershir-a.moon-sem3_170401a.jpg

July 31st, 2017 :

acershir-a.moon-sem0_170731a.jpg

October 2017:

acershir-a.moon-sem3_171013a.jpg

No photos this year, but the tallest one is already 1 m. (3 feet) tall after only two years! Of course they were repotted this spring and the tallest one was staked.
 

ryancalvert

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@AlainK the shape of the leaves is awesome though, regardless of the difference in color.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Sorry, you are correct, you were talking Acer shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon'. not A. palmatum. The 2 species are very similar except the Acer shirasawanum is slightly more winter hardy. Some differences on hairs on undersides of leaves, and how the seed clusters hang.

Seedlings of Acer shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon' will not be genetically identical to 'Autumn Moon' - re-assortment of genes is the biological function of reproduction by seed. The seedlings should be labeled Acer shirasawanum without any cultivar name, as they are guaranteed to NOT be identical to 'Autumn Moon'. Just the way naming rules work. Of course like a mutt dog, that is shepherd & beagle, no papers will be given. You will see traits of each parent. If on the odd chance both parents were beagles, but one beagle did not have AKC papers, the pups can not get AKC papers even though they really do look like a beagle, the AKC for dogs won't give papers or the taxonomists for plants won't give the cultivar name 'Autumn Moon' to seedlings known to be from seed rather than cuttings, or grafting from the original 'Autumn Moon'.

In terms of bonsai, those seedlings are great for bonsai compared to the grafted tree. The seedlings will have trunks without the issue of grafting scars. Go for it.
 

GGB

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Just poking around here, but.. if A. shirasawanum is more cold hardy and otherwise similar why isn't it used more frequently, or in place of A. palmatum? Is there some drawback?
 

AlainK

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but.. if A. shirasawanum is more cold hardy and otherwise similar why isn't it used more frequently, or in place of A. palmatum? Is there some drawback?

Hi "GGB',

The plain species of A. palmatum and A. shirasawanum are about as much hardy.

There are sooo many cultivars of Acer palmatum, some of them are more fragile than others, but A. shirasawanum is probably stronger.

Acer shirasawanum, and Acer Japonicum are very rarely grown as bonsai because they have large leaves that are hard to reduce, whatever technique you use.

If someone ever showed an acer shirasawanum (whatever cultivar) that looks like a great bonsai, it will be a big bonsai (well over 75 cm).

"why isn't it used more frequently, or in place of A. palmatum?"

Because the leaves, the internodes can't be reduced as much as on other maple-cultivar- species.
 

GGB

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@AlainK thanks for the clarification. I assumed it was something pretty major. Beautiful trees regardless
 

ryancalvert

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Separate question regarding the Autumn Moon - should I move it (and a deciduous Dawn Redwood seedling) into a shady spot for the winter dormant period? It never gets very cold here during winter but wondering if the shade could help its dormancy rather than the current spot it is in.
 

AlainK

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It never gets very cold here

Lucky you :rolleyes:

should I move it (and a deciduous Dawn Redwood seedling) into a shady spot for the winter dormant period?

I don't think it will make a difference.

I'd say keeping it protected from the wind is probably more important.
 

It's Kev

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@0soyoung i found a nice jar/bottle/vase and been itching to do something with it, like make a little terrarium or use it to boost rooting of some cuttings.
Imma give some J.maples a shot and see what happens.
 

AlainK

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Hi, kevinlovett86

Whereabout are you in China?

I looked at a weather map and :

- Beijing : 32/22 F, 0/-6°C (about the average temps in the heart of winter here)
- Guangzhou : 60/57 F, 16-14°C (temps we usually have in March/april)
And I looove this one :
- Hohhot : 27/5 F, -4/-16 °C
Makes me wonder what the temps are in So-Wo-Kold, but couldn't find it on the map ! :D
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/climate/

You could perhaps indicate a large city near where you live. That would help, for there are 129 species listed in Flora of China that live either in subtropical climate (e.g. Acer laurinum) and very hardy species (Acer tataricum), not to mention for instance Acer buregerianum that can be grown in a wider range of environments.

Imma give some J.maples a shot and see what happens.

If they can get a dormancy period in winter (most of them are hardy to -25°C when in the soil) and the summers are not too hot and dry, they should be OK.

AK, near Orléans, France
 

It's Kev

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@AlainK
I’m in Shenzhen, it’s right between Guangzhou and HK. I had a trident before but I gave it away before I moved down here ( I used to be further inland).
This just seems like a fun little project to play with. I made a post about it a few days ago. I might also just buy one again in spring
 
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