AWhen do you decandle your JBP??????

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
When do you decandle your JBP?????? Now w/ PICS (HEAVY)

According to Ryan Neils JBP lecture you decandle by whatever your timing/growth season of your area is. He uses the example of Jun 1st (or last week in May for his location) of candle pruning. How exactly do we figure this out? I am trying to be as specific as possible for my location SO HOW did everyone figure it out for their location? Did you all just ask someone who does pines in your area? and how do you know he/she was correct?

(Yes I can just go along with June 1st/my gut but I am certain there is a method to this madness that can be written out)
 
Last edited:

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
Yes I have though I don't recall seeing a method on determining your areas candling. I will of course look again.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
Ahhhh yes this method does not work for what i am doing. The Ryan Neil method states that you cut the candles all at one time and before they have hardened off keeping the tree in a weaker state so it produces shorter needles and shorter internodes.

The method mentioned in your very nice article is more akin to the back budding recipe, allowing the needles to harden off gain energy putting the tree in a positive energy state then cutting candles (july 4thish in my area) thus prompting the invigorated tree to produce back buds.
 

garywood

Chumono
Messages
945
Reaction score
713
Location
N. Alabama
USDA Zone
7
Jason, de-candling is a technique for shorter internodes, needles and some back budding. It's not the primary technique for back budding. Is your tree ready for de-candling? Or partial de-candling? A photo would help.
 

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,111
Reaction score
30,183
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
Ahhhh yes this method does not work for what i am doing. The Ryan Neil method states that you cut the candles all at one time and before they have hardened off keeping the tree in a weaker state so it produces shorter needles and shorter internodes.

The method mentioned in your very nice article is more akin to the back budding recipe, allowing the needles to harden off gain energy putting the tree in a positive energy state then cutting candles (july 4thish in my area) thus prompting the invigorated tree to produce back buds.

Are you referring to breaking back the extended candles? That's done in the spring, on overlong candles after they have extended but before the needles develop...that would have been about 2 weeks to a month ago for me here in N GA. Decandling a pine- removing all the hardened off new growth from earlier in the spring- is done typically with about 100 days left in the growing season. Figure out when your typical first frost date is at your location, then count back from there. July 4th is pretty typical for those in the South East. Both breaking candles and decandling are energy balancing techniques that are used for material that has reached a certain level of development, fwiw.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
yes. I have a few finished pines that I am trying to follow Ryan Neils advice. If you go to his lecture on encouraging back budding he states to allow the candle to completely harden off and reaccumulate energy thus feeding the roots (where the power of a pine is produced) and the roots accumulate energy and when you cut the candle (or new shoots if you want to call them that) that excess energy cause a flush of backbuds.

BUT

If you want development you do not allow them to harden off. You allow them to extend then cut them off to keep the tree in a weaker state thus encouraging the second flush of buds in a weaker state leading to shorter weaker buds. These buds then elongate into shorter needled and shorter internod(ed?) pads.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
lecture time:

section start 10:45

11:30 goal of why we decandle

june 1st mentioned at 14:30

cut all candles even dormant buds at same time @20:45


[video=youtube;Yn1FiRw2JBo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo[/video]
 

Martin Sweeney

Chumono
Messages
688
Reaction score
165
Location
Waxhaw, NC
USDA Zone
8a
Jason,

I do not have a method to determine the date. We have traditionally candle pruned around July 4th here in the Charlotte area for trees we are trying to refine.

Ryan states he does large trees in Oregon the third week of May if I caught the audio correctly. This is due to what he characterizes as a shorter, rainier growing season. Also, he states that this is 4 weeks after his last of 3 applications of fertilizer.

So, if you fertilize in the next couple of weeks and assume that our longer growing season can push the "due date" out a month, then end of June/first week or so of July sounds right. I believe that Brian van Fleet mentioned a 100 days to harden off time requirement for JBP needles, which would put you in the mid-October range for our area, which should work out as well on the back end of things.

Regards,
Martin
 

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,111
Reaction score
30,183
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
As far as I can tell, when he is discussing removing ALL of the growth, including the dormant bud tips, he is still referring to decandling, so the timing discussed earlier would be the same.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
My confusion comes from his black pine back budding article in which he states you cut off the new growth after it has hardened off and reaccumulated energy and then states you don't want it to harden off if you are refining.

He states if it hardens off it allows the tree to gain energy where if you cut when it is prehard it is still in a negative energy state.

That is why I am trying to figure out if I am supposed to cut these candles earlier than the traditional July date.

Here is the pine I am working on:









 
Last edited:

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,996
Reaction score
46,167
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Your question, "when do I decandle" is still safely answered by "100 days before your first frost". Do it all at once, or staggered in 2 or 3 weeky phases (weak to strong), your call. This approach is basically consistent with Ryan's video.

If this doesn't answer your question, help us by answering this question: what are you trying to accomplish?

If this was my tree, I'd feed it hard, to let it gain strength (and set some interior buds), then prune and wire in the fall. It looks weak, and unbalanced, and thin on foliage; not bad, but needs to be addressed.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
It has been fed and has been needle plucked agressively down to the 10-12 needle pairs as Ryan has it.

I will extend out the candling and the good part is I can give it another fertilizer treatment.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,898
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Let's take a moment here to discuss "buds" on a JBP. There are three primary types of buds on a JBP: Spring buds, adventitious buds, and needle buds.

Spring buds are the ones that are growing vigorously right now, and every tip end of the tree has one, and they grow straight up, and can be very long. Left to it's own devices, these are the buds the tree wants to grow to be strong, tall, and vigorous. Unfortunately, these candles are generally TOO strong for our purposes. There is a section on these candles have no buds of any kind. This is the section between where the candle emerges from last year's growth, to the first needle. This section can vary in length, but is usually at least about an inch, to as much as 6 inches! Waaaay to long.

Down at the base of the spring buds are the "adventitious" buds. The hormones produced by the growing Spring bud supresses these from developing, usually. Sometimes you get multiple Spring buds from one spot, and even if you do, there are still dormant adventitious buds there. These are the buds that the tree's damage control. If something happens to the spring bud, the hormone flow that suppresses the adventitious buds will stop. Which allows the adventitious buds to start to grow. There's usually 3 to 5 buds at the base of each Spring bud. When we decandle, these buds are the ones that will grow. When they do, they will have less energy since the Spring bud used so much, and the energy is spread between 3 to 5 buds, rather than just one. What this does for us is the "neck", the space between where the bud emerges from last year's wood and the first candle is much shorter. A quarter inch, maybe. They won't extend as far, and depending upon when the decandling is performed, these needles will have a shorter growing season, so they'll be shorter than those the Spring candle would produce.

Finally, we have "needle" buds. There is a bud between each needle in a pair of needles. These are very weak, and if they grow, they form unusual stems. They will eventually develop to be indistinguishable from regular candles in time. These are the tree's defense of last resort. If a branch breaks off behind the spot where the adventitious buds are, but there are still needles, the branch might develop needle buds. They're unreliable, though. Typically, if you get a needle bud growing, and it happens to be in a good place, use it. Just don't design your branch around the idea that you will stimulate a needle bud.

Ok. There they are.

What then is "back budding"? Generally speaking, when we talk about "back budding" on JBP, we are talking about getting a bud to pop from old grey wood where no greenery exists. Remember the hormones that suppresses the adventitious buds? Well, those adventitious buds might get suppressed for several years, but they are still there. If something happens, like a decandling, or pruning that interrupts the auxin flow suppressing them, they might just pop out and develop. They will be very weak. Maybe only producing a couple pairs of needles. Leave them alone for a couple years, until they get strong enough, and then you can decandle them. In fact, you might be able to eventually cut back to them. We call this process "chasing the branch back to the trunk". Back budding generally doesn't happen once true bark forms. The bark shades the buds from the sun. So, you need to try to expose the smooth grey branches to the sun, if you want back budding. This is where wiring helps. When you wire, then bend the branches down, it opens up the branch structure to the sun, allowing sunlight to hit the wood, thus stimulating back budding. What kind of bud will be stimulated? Most likely an old adventitious bud, but you can get old needle buds, too.

To recap, when we decandle, we are not "back budding". Decandling stimulates the adventitious buds. I tend to get more "backbudding" over the winter, with growth (needles emerging) in spring. That's because I reduce the second flush of adventious buds on each twig to two in the fall, and wire in the fall. The drop in auxin from 5 buds to 2, and exposure to sunlight stimulates old dormant buds (back buds).

As to when to decandle, every person develops their own schedule for trial and error. Every growing season is different, so it's an art, not a science. Generally speaking, if you want longer needles, decandle early. If you want shorter needles, decandle later in the summer.
 

Jason_mazzy

Chumono
Messages
693
Reaction score
6
Location
Hickory NC
Let's take a moment here to discuss "buds" on a JBP. There are three primary types of buds on a JBP: Spring buds, adventitious buds, and needle buds.

Spring buds are the ones that are growing vigorously right now, and every tip end of the tree has one, and they grow straight up, and can be very long. Left to it's own devices, these are the buds the tree wants to grow to be strong, tall, and vigorous. Unfortunately, these candles are generally TOO strong for our purposes. There is a section on these candles have no buds of any kind. This is the section between where the candle emerges from last year's growth, to the first needle. This section can vary in length, but is usually at least about an inch, to as much as 6 inches! Waaaay to long.

Down at the base of the spring buds are the "adventitious" buds. The hormones produced by the growing Spring bud supresses these from developing, usually. Sometimes you get multiple Spring buds from one spot, and even if you do, there are still dormant adventitious buds there. These are the buds that the tree's damage control. If something happens to the spring bud, the hormone flow that suppresses the adventitious buds will stop. Which allows the adventitious buds to start to grow. There's usually 3 to 5 buds at the base of each Spring bud. When we decandle, these buds are the ones that will grow. When they do, they will have less energy since the Spring bud used so much, and the energy is spread between 3 to 5 buds, rather than just one. What this does for us is the "neck", the space between where the bud emerges from last year's wood and the first candle is much shorter. A quarter inch, maybe. They won't extend as far, and depending upon when the decandling is performed, these needles will have a shorter growing season, so they'll be shorter than those the Spring candle would produce.

Finally, we have "needle" buds. There is a bud between each needle in a pair of needles. These are very weak, and if they grow, they form unusual stems. They will eventually develop to be indistinguishable from regular candles in time. These are the tree's defense of last resort. If a branch breaks off behind the spot where the adventitious buds are, but there are still needles, the branch might develop needle buds. They're unreliable, though. Typically, if you get a needle bud growing, and it happens to be in a good place, use it. Just don't design your branch around the idea that you will stimulate a needle bud.

Ok. There they are.

What then is "back budding"? Generally speaking, when we talk about "back budding" on JBP, we are talking about getting a bud to pop from old grey wood where no greenery exists. Remember the hormones that suppresses the adventitious buds? Well, those adventitious buds might get suppressed for several years, but they are still there. If something happens, like a decandling, or pruning that interrupts the auxin flow suppressing them, they might just pop out and develop. They will be very weak. Maybe only producing a couple pairs of needles. Leave them alone for a couple years, until they get strong enough, and then you can decandle them. In fact, you might be able to eventually cut back to them. We call this process "chasing the branch back to the trunk". Back budding generally doesn't happen once true bark forms. The bark shades the buds from the sun. So, you need to try to expose the smooth grey branches to the sun, if you want back budding. This is where wiring helps. When you wire, then bend the branches down, it opens up the branch structure to the sun, allowing sunlight to hit the wood, thus stimulating back budding. What kind of bud will be stimulated? Most likely an old adventitious bud, but you can get old needle buds, too.

To recap, when we decandle, we are not "back budding". Decandling stimulates the adventitious buds. I tend to get more "backbudding" over the winter, with growth (needles emerging) in spring. That's because I reduce the second flush of adventious buds on each twig to two in the fall, and wire in the fall. The drop in auxin from 5 buds to 2, and exposure to sunlight stimulates old dormant buds (back buds).

As to when to decandle, every person develops their own schedule for trial and error. Every growing season is different, so it's an art, not a science. Generally speaking, if you want longer needles, decandle early. If you want shorter needles, decandle later in the summer.

Great post, it is the same as Ryan Neils explanation and very well laid out. My confusion just stems from trying to do this Ryans way and I can only infer from the video since I do not know him. I hear 3rd week of may-june first and in the other lecture half that you don't want them to harden off so I am second guessing my timing. I want to develop these pads and bring the tree up. It is a 4 year plan


the two by two by two pad density that Ryan speaks about at the end of the lecture.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,898
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Since you mentioned it...

The 2 by 2 by 2 thing... That's 2 adventious buds every year. To build out the pad. Sounds, good, doesn't it? But, if you really did that, you'd have needles at the perimeter of the pad, but nothing but wood in the center. And you don't want that.

So, yes, you do the 2 by 2 by 2 to develop ramification and build structure, but you also let the back budding occur back closer to the trunk. It usually happens on top of a Y fork. Right at the top of the crotch. You don't want any that come off the bottom of the crotch. If you get those, cut them off.

You will eventually wire the new top twig down, but when they're young, they're filling the pad.

And also eventually, you will cut off one of the original 2, and use the top branch as one of the Ys. This process is repeated for decades.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,898
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
For Hickory, NC, I would wait until at least the middle to end of June to decandle.

Remember, Ryan lives in Oregon. It's wet and cold there. And they don't really get a lot of sunny days. Assuming you get the same kind of weather I do in NE GA, you could wait until July.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,898
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Thanks, Brian.

I guess I have learned something from going to Boon's Intensives! Working on his trees, seeing trees that have been properly trained for a long time is a real educational experience.

Sure, the workshops where a master comes in and styles a raw tree are fun, but learning how to refine a tree can't be taught unless you have refined material. On Boon's trees, he'll point out secondary branches he's going to cut off "next year", where there's another branch to take it's place.

One more comment about developing JBP: Boon says that virtually all the great JBPs have had branches grafted on. He says it's an essential skill to learn.

Think about it... Whenever I used to consider material for bonsai, I used to look at the trunk and the basic branch structure, and see if there was "a Number 1 branch, a Number 2 branch, this is a good Back branch", etc. As I progressed, I came to realize that the nebari and lower trunk were more important, and I would base my first selection criteria on the nebari, and then see if it had proper branching. Now, knowing how to graft, I can feel free to choose trunks and know I can put branches where they need to be.

(Sorry to have gone a bit off topic.)
 
Top Bottom