Azalea first styling from nursery

AnutterBonsai

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So thank you for all the responses. I haven’t seen the media dry out as much at all, never tried to let it dry too much either. I definitely notice that drainage is good and the water comes out clear, indicating I did wash off all kanuma slurry right after repotting. One thing I did notice, is that all the damage is mostly being done to the lower branches. Top growth is healthy and actually quite vigorous (it being an azalea, this is actually surprising).
I could wait longer to water perhaps, as @Deep Sea Diver noted, growth has definitely slowed down since initial styling, quite significantly in fact. So perhaps watering every day is not the move. Should I water when the moss becomes less wet? Maybe moist? Currently the moss is quite wet by the time I water the plant. Here are a few close ups on leaves all over the plant.
 

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Kullas

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To me it looks like the rootball got a little dry. Here is mine that had the same problem20220504_162810.jpg
 

AnutterBonsai

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It’s a possibility honestly. Maybe there was a day where I was not paying attention to it as much. Before the shade cloth there were a few hot days and it may have been exposed a bit too long. Don’t remember much if it did happen. However would it explain for me to lose a few branches though?
 

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Yes, it just looks exactly like an azalea that dried up. And I don't see how an azalea that was doing fine in a nursery pot can suddenly have root rot after a repot into kanuma.

This is one of my azaleas that got fried. Sitting in the sun shining on the pot with the kanuma totally dry for just a short while.
About 20 other of my azaleas were fine sitting right next to it.

Not the best picture as I tried to capture the new green buds:
1653141554706.png

Your main indication could have been the new growth going limp. If you are 100% sure the new growth, part of which is now brown and shriveled, was never ever limp, then I don't know.

If you see the new growth go limp, you still have time to water and for it to recover without any issues.
And this indication one can also use use to delay watering a bit and letting the soil dry up a bit.
Because if there is no sign of the new growth going limp yet, and the kanuma is yellow, you can delay for a few more hours or maybe half a day.
Of course, the hotter and sunnier the weather, the faster things progress and the more risk you are taking.
I wouldn't recommend at all to make the new growth go limp before watering, though.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@AnutterBonsai - I just took an all day workshop with Rick Garcia, of the NASBC, his only specialty is Satsuki. The trouble you are having with your Satsuki is not what you did but WHEN you did it. You are in Houston, where the summers start early and are hot and long. You MUST do repotting in late winter or very early spring. In Houston, repotting needs to be done well before the spring equinox. The repotting should have been done in late January or anytime February, certainly no later than middle of March - IN HOUSTON, TX. If you were somewhere else in the world the timing would be different.

In general, repotting should be done only once every 2 to 5 years, with 3 years being the average for trees less than 10 years in a bonsai pot. Less frequent repotting for trees that have been in bonsai pots more than 10 years. Repotting should be done late winter or early spring, BEFORE BLOOMING. Waiting until after blooming is the major cause of failures after repotting. Dropped branches, withering and sometimes a dead tree is the result of waiting until after blooming to repot.

You do not let an azalea bloom the year you plan on repotting. In order to have the energy to develop as bonsai, energy for branch ramification, developing nebari, foliage pads, and heavy bloom displays, in BONSAI culture, Satsuki are only allowed to bloom maybe every 3rd year. Satsuki that are grown strictly for flower display are only allowed to bloom every other year. The point is there is a BAD PRACTICE that has infiltrated USA bonsai culture. This waiting to repot until after blooming has doomed many an azalea to decline and sometimes death. Leaving one or two buds on an azalea so you can see what the flowers look like is not usually a problem. An azalea should only be allowed to fully bloom maybe every 3rd year, no root work the year before full bloom. Extra attention to feeding the year before and no drastic pruning the year before allowing a full heavy bloom. Then after full bloom, give a period of 3 weeks of "rest" with a dose of fertilizer, after removing spent blooms and straggler buds. Then do the post-bloom cut back. The following year only allow a couple flower buds, remove the rest, repot if needed and do more serious pruning if needed. Point is, allowing heavy bloom is done only every 3rd year.

@Deep Sea Diver is fortunate enough to live in the greater Seattle area where the climate is so mild (or was) that timing is not as critical in his growing zone. No critique of his techniques. Climate change is real, time will tell if Seattle weather will remain as "mild" as it used to be. It used to be considered a temperate rain forest, no long a rain forest climate, it is still rather mild.

Rick Garcia has a book on Satsuki coming out within the next couple months, keep an eye out for it.
 

yashu

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On the watering/moisture retention issue, I have found that the chopstick method has helped a great deal until I learned my plants own patterns and indicators. That is to sink a cheap (fast food bamboo Chinese type) chopstick well into the soil near the root ball. You can pull the chopstick and see if it’s still moist and how moist and the depth at which the moisture is retained within the soil. This has helped me.

Another thing I learned is that diligence in my repotting practice matters especially when it comes to making sure the new soil infiltrates the roots of the plant THOROUGHLY AND COMPLETELY when washing and replacing soil. I won’t say how many big box store azalea I’ve killed by leaving air spaces within the root ball when repotting. It took a number of plants just to figure this out. When I would autopsy my dead azalea I would find large sections of dry bristly roots within an otherwise moist soil mass and when I broke apart one dead plant that had been sitting for a bit I found the soil had set like a geode around a big air pocket I had neglected to fill with new soil. Be sure you are getting soil all through the roots!
 

Deep Sea Diver

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@AnutterBonsai - I just took an all day workshop with Rick Garcia, of the NASBC, his only specialty is Satsuki. The trouble you are having with your Satsuki is not what you did but WHEN you did it.

To @AnutterBonsai.
Your tree is showing signs of stress. It’s not bad yet. The best thing is to be conservative. Check for spider mites… have a sheet of paper underneath and tap the brown foliage to see if tiny specks that crawl appear. If so treat accordingly. Keep it out of the sun as best as possible. Use any method, finger, chopstick to check the soil underneath. Mist or water accordingly, but don’t go two days without a light watering.

@leo in NE Illinois Glad to hear Rick is nearing publication. I’ve been hearing this same thing for a couple months now for a year…Pandemic. It would be good to see his book as Kennedy’s book, used, is now selling for over 130.00 lately.

I totally understand Rick’s stance on US practitioners independent streak. Good luck on fixing that…. folks wanting to fully flower every year, especially with big azaleas is daunting to me. We are dealing with one at work right now…

Yet what I’ve been looking forward to is seeing if Rick has written about damage control…. how to recover when things start going awry, or if you’ve gone ‘off the golden path’. That’s rarely if ever written about in bonsai books… it’s always do things this perfect way. But not what to do when things start to go downhill.

Of the two issues we deal with at BN technique and damage control, damage control is what seems to happen most frequently of late.

I rarely do repotting after bloom, but will if the need arises, and rarely see a tree fail. Having over 110 various age (most less then 10 yoa) azaleas in pots, all of which I’ve rootwashed and repotted, right now and over 300 second year cuttings in peat based potting soil, I get plenty of experience with azalea issues. Don’t mistake me for an expert though.

As far as climate change goes, at our home we’ve have zero visibility from smoke (N95 or stay inside) for weeks, massive near and far forest fires and excessive heat dome effects (114F last year) in the past 5-10 years, so we have experienced some of the climate change effects.

Best to all!
DSD sends
 

AnutterBonsai

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Thanks @Leo in N E Illinois and everyone else. I think definitely I was about three to four weeks off with my timing. As a few of you know, I repotted a few young whips from riverbend gardens about a month before I did this one, and they’re thriving/growing with no issues. I failed to do this one at the same time, as I just wanted to wait for flowering, but I decided to finally do it because I knew the heat was coming, so I did right before it came, however it was not enough time to recover, and I guess it was a bit too late. There is still new buds coming out of the trunk and green everywhere, so I’m hoping I can have a healthy tree by the end of the year.
Hard lessons to learn, living down in the south. But I will take it to heart and learn from this.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Hard to learn if you don’t ever make a mistake? I say that most likely because I’m a third born!

I figure I learn 10x more by having a tree in the ICU, then having a tree that’s never had issues. You might check out this project of mine if you haven’t it’s was a true journey to recovery.

Good Luck and try not to kick yourself, just focus on the learning you are getting from tending a tree in recovery. You may need it later.

cheers
DSD sends
 

AnutterBonsai

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Hard to learn if you don’t ever make a mistake? I say that most likely because I’m a third born!

I figure I learn 10x more by having a tree in the ICU, then having a tree that’s never had issues. You might check out this project of mine if you haven’t it’s was a true journey to recovery.

Good Luck and try not to kick yourself, just focus on the learning you are getting from tending a tree in recovery. You may need it later.

cheers
DSD sends
Much appreciated! I will check out your thread
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Yes, it is important to "not let perfection become the enemy of the good" or "good enough".

But the advice is or was about how to avoid repeating the occurrence of damage. We should be able to repot our trees each time, every time, without die back. What is the key? Timing is the key to avoiding die back in the future. Repotting before new growth has extended, when spring buds are just showing life (similar to when we repot maples, larch and elms) is the ideal time. You can repot even a little later, but the later the repotting is, the greater the chances of sulking. Repotting before growth begins will slow significantly the beginning of spring growth, so best to wait until there is some sign of spring growth.

Because I winter my tender trees in a well house, a room that is an underground room, accessed by a door in the foundation of my house. It used to house the well head that was removed when the house was switched to municipal water supply. In the back yard, what looks like a patio is in fact the ceiling of my well house. My own underground "bunker". Because access is a little difficult, having a low ceiling, I often miss the ideal early spring window for repotting of trees. So while I harp on when it is ideal to do repotting, I have a fair number of trees that are several years late in being repotted because I did not get into the well house in time to do the repotting, and they now have to wait another year. I do tend to wait another year rather than repot late, only because I lost so many azaleas over the years due to late repotting. @Deep Sea Diver you probably have (or had) better success with late repotting because of your mild summers. Though now that may no longer be the case.

Right now I am having central air being installed on my 100 year old home. I've lived here over 35 years, and up until about 5 years ago the location was "cooler by the Lake". Lake Effect from Lake Michigan meant that by sundown, no matter how hot it was during the day, a cool breeze would kick up and the house would be down around 70 F an hour or two after sundown. About 15 years ago this became less reliable, about 5 years ago I had to put a window unit air conditioner in my bedroom. Now summers have gotten so hot, with higher night time temps that I have decided I need to go with a whole house air conditioning. Most of Illinois electricity comes from nuclear and from wind generation, so adding air conditioning is not directly adding to CO2. But it is a sad thing to have to do. I really miss "Lake Effect" summers used to be delightful here.

I am thin on advice as to how to recover, other than avoid hot sun, not too wet, not too dry, and cross your fingers. That is a weakness of mine. I don't have a lot of good "recovery advice".
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Good advice as always Leo.

Actually I’ve repotted successfully year around, but when repotting, especially smaller azaleas like I have lots of, common sense prevails. It is major surgery and after getting chest surgery two weeks ago, I know how that feels. So aftercare and timing is a big deal for me.

(btw I hesitate to repot the smaller azaleas I have here after mid August - mid February nowadays as the recovery and aftercare can be onerous.)

The sulk factor Leo mentioned is a big deal. It’s situational and one has to have maintain both historical awareness and constant vigilance after rootwashing and after ordinary repots. Here’s a couple examples.

One of my goals is the keep things conservative until the tree has obviously pushed all the way past the sulking period and then watch carefully for another four weeks.

Today I was taking the morning walk through on the more shaded lower deck, looking at the many whips and 3-8 year olds that I rootwashed in the flurry before my surgery.… so 4-5 weeks ago. About 2/3 are perky and pushing new growth. Others like the Wakaebisu, Macrantha and Yama No Hikari are in full diva sulk mode…

Yesterday one of the satsuki, Kongo no Hikari on the more sunny upper deck, which was looking strong after recovering from a root wash in March showed wilt on the leaves after a couple hours of full sun.… that means to me it’s roots haven’t fully recovered, so it’s down on the lower deck until it gets stronger. Later I remembered it was one off the ones that had to get a big root reduction during root washing to correct it’s initial nebari in late March. While its foliage was in good shape, not the roots. So not yet in the ER, but it’s scheduled for frequent check ups.

Today I noticed a couple Lace bugs flitting about. That’s a warning sign. So after each azalea finishes flowering, so after the Lace bug debacle two years ago, I know it’s time for a preventative treatment against Lace Bugs.

As you can see, I’m still learning by leaps and bounds myself.

best
DSD sends
 

Glaucus

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It is interesting that @shinmai and @Leo in N E Illinois seem to disagree about repotting during summer. But I think Shinmai's plants were a lot of garden plants transplanted to large pots? And then 40C was fine.

I have many seedlings with burned leaves from not watering in time. Burned leaf tips are a clear sign that the azalea lost turgur pressure and then the tips desiccated.
But as always, an azalea with rotted roots ie no roots sitting in the sun gets burned leaves. The same is true for an azalea with healthy roots in dry soil.
 

shinmai

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It is interesting that @shinmai and @Leo in N E Illinois seem to disagree about repotting during summer. But I think Shinmai's plants were a lot of garden plants transplanted to large pots? And then 40C was fine.

I have many seedlings with burned leaves from not watering in time. Burned leaf tips are a clear sign that the azalea lost turgur pressure and then the tips desiccated.
But as always, an azalea with rotted roots ie no roots sitting in the sun gets burned leaves. The same is true for an azalea with healthy roots in dry soil.
Au contraire! The professor and I are talking about different situations. My advice was about a dying tree, for which the only hope was an emergency repot. Leo is talking about good normal practice. If you follow his advice, you’ll never end up in a situation where mine is called for.
‘Random thoughts on previous posts in this thread:
  • Never, ever “blast” the nursery soil out with high pressure water. You’ll kill gajillions of root hairs. Tease out as much soil as you possibly can, and then gently swish the root mass in a five-gallon bucket of lukewarm water to remove the rest.
  • It’s ‘shin’, not ‘sheen’. Depending on the context, it can mean heart, core, or integrity. It is indeed the center of the tree’s universe. It is also the name of a fairly incredible Japanese whiskey. IMO, the 10 YO is better than the 15.
  • I have seen the galley proof of Rick’s book. Anyone who is remotely interested in Satsuki azaleas who does not buy it upon release is an idiot. Period.
 

Glaucus

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Au contraire! The professor and I are talking about different situations. My advice was about a dying tree, for which the only hope was an emergency repot. Leo is talking about good normal practice. If you follow his advice, you’ll never end up in a situation where mine is called for.

Sorry, I checked and it wasn't you but @Shibui .

Similar enough name, right.
Just trying to find out if it can be explained why people have different experiences. Different climates and different ways to repot, possibly.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Gosh, I’m always mystified with the different information I get from various sources, online, books by “experts” articles written by practitioners.

For only one example and not to take this as a knock please, it’s just an example of the confusion I have faced in the past five years with bonsai advice. I’ve also heard this advice from a number of other sources…

@shinmai writes,
  • “Never, ever “blast” the nursery soil out with high pressure water. You’ll kill gajillions of root hairs. Tease out as much soil as you possibly can, and then gently swish the root mass in a five-gallon bucket of lukewarm water to remove the rest.”
Seems pretty straightford…. Yet in only one counter example after reading all the articles and books and posts I could find on azaleas in the PBM library of articles/ BN/Internet (Crazy? Yep. Well I was laid up for 18 months with a broken chest, so what else did I have to do?)
… International Bonsai #54 Developing Informal upright style Azalea Bonsai was the first article I found after a 5 minute search.

“….Care of roots. After pruning the branches The roots should be cleaned out. First remove old soil with a root hook or chopstick. Remove thick roots with a concave pruner or knob cutter. The gently remove further soil gently with a chopstick….“

Now wait for it….

“The final soil should be removed with a high pressure hose or a strong spray from a garden hose. The roots should be bare without any old soil. Cut the roots to fit into a training container.”

So being very inquisitive of nature and one who doesn’t like absolutes, I tried out both methods, just to see which worked best. Tub washing with a chopstick and a gentle flow on the water wand and using my watering wand up to full bore at times with a chopstick to clear alway all of the soil. Both lived and both responded similarly over time.

The only exceptions were when dead patches of roots were discovered, or big roots impeding a good nebari were reduced. As would be expected, these trees where the roots were impaired or need to be cut back took longer to recover, yet recover they did. In similar time frames.

A couple recent images, just for ground truth.

ABBC4CBC-8FD2-45B9-88BA-BD1F9C9433F4.jpeg 937B2601-C523-474F-8D93-117751EC500B.jpeg

Now one could always say to me, sure it worked for you in a couple cases, but…. that was only a couple azaleas. Maybe you got lucky or were sloppy in observing. Hmm…. Absolutely no give on my part here.

Over the past four years I’ve done both procedures to over a hundred different azaleas. obtw: Since I was getting similar results by last year I flat gave up root washing in a tub except of certain cases, in lieu of hose root washing. It’s generally faster and where the grower uses a gritty blend of media, like Riverbend or lots of bark chips like Kusa-farm and Nuccios pretty much the very best option.

Here’s the upper deck with over 50 rootwashed (either way) azaleas

image.jpg

Does that mean everyone, especially the first timer should do this? I’d recommend going slow for the first couple azaleas. Use a tub, chopstick and gentle flow on your water wand, just to get a close up view of the lay of the land. After all one should crawl and then walk before attempting running. But after that… Katie bar the door!

After all that I’m a bit more hesitant to accept blanket advice and absolutes.

In one more case I was told on BN by a very respected member…one can not, absolutely not grow azalea whips without a greenhouse. (This was before I installed two myself).

So being very inquisitive of nature and one who doesn’t like absolutes, I tried to do this… check out the bench

image.jpg

Ok I hope everyone takes this in good humor with an open mind. I’m certainly not trying to demean anyones expertise, knowledge or years working with bonsai. I totally respect you all and appreciate the chance to participate with some many awesome, incredible folks! I’ll just pointing out what all of us know… bonsai isn’t a perfect art…. Often it depends.

My apologies @AnutterBonsai for stampeding all over your thread. Please accept my heartfelt apologies!

cheers! Now I gotta get back to work, those darn trees don’t wire themselves!
DSD sends

ps: I’ll be posting this as separate thread tonight. Title Azalea Wars - Waterwashing Roots. Please respond there so @AnutterBonsai can have his thread back. Than you!
 
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Glaucus

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Azalea roots are very fine. So I can see why there is a concern of a yet of water causing damage. Only way to find out is to try. Of course water jets can come in various forms of flow rates.
And while DSDs results seem to conform it does absolutely no harm, it could still do a little harm.
I would say it should be perfectly safe to wash soil away with a water yet that makes it a lot easier without causing any damage.
Maybe the bonsai people frown upon it because using a chop stick and carefully through skill of hand working the roots fits their tradition a lot better than using a fast technological way.
The bare rooting itself is known to not cause harm by itself for azaleas.

As for growing whips without a greenhouse. Maybe that BN member was me? Me taking cuttings of varieties like Hekisui and Kozan has given me so little growth, I couldn't imagine growing whips 40cm tall without one. My 2cm of growth vs the 40 or even 60cm of growth is a significant difference. So I assumed the greenhouse plays a key role.
Especially since Callaham's book makes a point about the temperatures.
Maybe it is me that cannot grow whips.
 

shinmai

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Azalea roots are very fine. So I can see why there is a concern of a yet of water causing damage. Only way to find out is to try. Of course water jets can come in various forms of flow rates.
And while DSDs results seem to conform it does absolutely no harm, it could still do a little harm.
I would say it should be perfectly safe to wash soil away with a water yet that makes it a lot easier without causing any damage.
Maybe the bonsai people frown upon it because using a chop stick and carefully through skill of hand working the roots fits their tradition a lot better than using a fast technological way.
The bare rooting itself is known to not cause harm by itself for azaleas.

As for growing whips without a greenhouse. Maybe that BN member was me? Me taking cuttings of varieties like Hekisui and Kozan has given me so little growth, I couldn't imagine growing whips 40cm tall without one. My 2cm of growth vs the 40 or even 60cm of growth is a significant difference. So I assumed the greenhouse plays a key role.
Especially since Callaham's book makes a point about the temperatures.
Maybe it is me that cannot grow whips.
 

shinmai

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Imports from Japan are shipped bare root, that is not a problem. My emphasis was on the word ‘blast’. YouTube bonsai videos of Japanese’masters’ turning a tree upside down and hosing the crap out of it are a dime a dozen, but most of the time they’re doing it to a maple. It’s also helpful to bear in mind that most of the Japanese masters on video are commercial nurserymen, not hobbyists.
 
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