Back to the candles/shoots/cutting/twisting, etc.

[Mudroot]

Starting a new thread so no one has to wade though the "Finally got the pine repotted" thread.

It's here if you need to refer: http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/finally-got-that-pine-repotted.18318/

Okay now. Here's a sketch I made of a candle/shoot ....GREEN GROWING ...part.

Now ...if I understand the process.... the shoot should be allowed to grow in the spring, thus drawing all sorts of growy, good, sap, auxin (?), juice, stuff to infuse the branch with vigor and POWER!

Then.... in July or so.... I should cut it off at where the line on the sketch called "B" is.

Is this right?

 

[Giga]

Peter tea has good articles on this as well, but what species are you talking about? JBP you can cut all the way back to where the shoot starts, BUT this depends on where your at with the tree and what techniques you really want to use. As needle pulling comes into play as well to balance each area of the tree. I would read every post on pines on bonsaitonight, peterteablog and brian van's blog as well

 

[0soyoung]

Now ...if I understand the process.... the shoot should be allowed to grow in the spring, thus drawing all sorts of growy, good, sap, auxin (?), juice, stuff to infuse the branch with vigor and POWER!

No, not with JBP. The key thing with JBP is that we want 'summer candles' to have a short time to grow before the end of the season so that we get reduced length needles. We let the 'spring candles' grow because the 'summer candle' process starts as soon as we cut them (the 'spring candles/shoots') off.

In my climate, I must prune the 'spring candles' in May, well before the needles have hardened. At this point, they are not exporting much auxin down the (old) stem, so I don't get much of a stimulus for back (fascicular) budding. In warmer climes (e.g., most of CA, Houston, along the Gulf Coast) pruning can be delayed until ca 4 July or even August when the spring candles are fully extended with hardened needles exporting abundant amounts of auxin - there, pruning the 'spring candles also provides a strong stimulus for fasciular budding.

 

[Mudroot]

It's a Sylvestris / Scots pine.

 

[M. Frary]

It's a Sylvestris / Scots pine.

Then yes. Wait till the new needles start to harden then cut that thing back like your illustration.

 

[Adair M]

On your illustration, it would appear you are leaving a few new needles on the new shoot.

If you do this on a JBP, it WONT work.

On a JBP, you must cut so that no new new needles remain.

I will let Vance tell you if your illustration is correct for Scots or Mugos. I don't think it is. My reading of Vance's post indicates that all the needles must be removed.

I will say that if we were talking about JWP, your illustration would be more accurate, but I would leave more needles on. But, JWP is a whole separate topic.

 

[0soyoung]

It's a Sylvestris / Scots pine.

Okay. With mugos and scotts pines, one lets the candle extend fully and the needles have hardened, then cuts the shoot off at its base, leaving just a bit of green - same pruning mechanics as JBP. Mugos and P. sylvestris will respond by only setting buds for next season. P. mugo keeps its needles for about 5 years, so one can do this for only 4 successive seasons. Similarly for scotts pines.

 

[Adair M]

So here, we've identified a key difference between the JBP and the Scots/Mugos: the length of time their needles remain active on the tree.

JBP will keep it's old needles 3 years. But those 3 year old needles are pretty much used up. I only keep two years of needles on my JBP, and often reduce them down to only the current year needles, except for weaker areas of the tree where I will allow the tree to keep two year old needles to help strengthen that area.

So, for Scots and Mugos, It appears that we keep the older needles on the tree. (I'm Inferring this from reading Vance's posts. I don't have any Mugos or Scots.) Vance, I hope I'm getting it. I'm slow, I know.

 

[0soyoung]

JBP will keep it's old needles 3 years. But those 3 year old needles are pretty much used up. I only keep two years of needles on my JBP, and often reduce them down to only the current year needles, except for weaker areas of the tree where I will allow the tree to keep two year old needles to help strengthen that area.

Good points, Adair.

If I may say, we could treat JBPs in the same way even if their needles only lasted for one year. Such a tree would live on last seaon's needles when the spring candles are removed. Before the season is over, we get a second flush - new foliage, which would be the foliage that sustains the tree when the next season's spring candles are removed. So, with JRP and JBP you can remove year+ foliage to open it up to light and to balance strength as you have said. The fact that JBP and JRP will flush again in the same season makes the longevity of needles pretty much irrelevant.

AFIK these, along with P. bungeanum, are the only pines that will double flush (though P. strobus will, somewhat).

So, what one can do with all other pines depends upon needle longevity. JWP needles last 2 years, for example. In principle we could decandle, but it leaves the tree to survive the next the next spring on second season needles - we're stuck; not decandling in the second season or we've killed the tree because it will have no productive foliage. So, instead, we only cut part of the new candle after it has hardened, which is, in fact, the way we can treat ANY PINE.

It is not necessary to completely decandle a mugo/scotts, but you can, because of needle longevity. It is not necessary to completely decandle JBP or JRP, but you can because they will make new ones in the same season, and you get short needles if you time it so the needles have a brief time to extend before the growing season is over (P. bergeranum needles are fairly short anyway, though very straight and stiff). Regardless, pruning a substantial portion of a newly hardened candle will induce fascicular budding in what remains on the branch. In some species you may get more back budding than just new buds at the bases of some needles.

Of couse, the reason for all of this is to keep the foliage from 'walking away'. If we don't induce fascicular budding, the branch only extends from the tip and old foliage closer to the trunk drops off in old age - in effect the needles just keep moving farther away from the trunk, year after year. Fasicular buds/shoots are the only way to stop the needles from just 'walking away'. This is why we (partially) prune candles.

 

[Adair M]

And the other benefit of decandling JBP, is the summer candles have no "neck", the part between where it emerged to the first needle. This also helps to keep the internodes short.

You can treat Virginia Pine like JBP, too. Their needles twist, so their foliage never looks refined, however.

 

[Vance Wood]

Your initial illustration is accurate for both Mugo and Scots Pines with one exception, you don't cut the new growth off all the way back to the old growth you leave about 1mm of the new nude stem (some call this the neck) behind.