Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Bad Material

[Darth Tanuki]

If you start with bad material, no matter who works on it, it will still be bad material. Just wondering where everybody stands on this thought.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Darth,

You state Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Bad Material.

I would state Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Undetermined Result. Maybe I am an optimist.

Regards,
Martin

 

[milehigh_7]

This has been beat more than any dead horse. The variable you are not considering is time. Given enough time and the ability (read talent) to keep the subject alive through various procedures and the vision to see what you want something to become, there is no such thing as "bad material" only untalented people with no vision.

Good material buys you time and CAN cover for some shortcomings in talent.

 

[yenling83]

I agree with you Darth! Unless it's young material that you are growing out. Or sometimes you can airlayer a large ugly tree and use a portion of it. But Ultimately even the greatest Bonsai Master is extremely confined by the quality of potential in a tree. Don't waste your time with junk!

 

[flor1]

Always remember you can't make a pigs ear into a silk purse.

 

[milehigh_7]

Let me equate this to another area of my life. Someone who is tone deaf may be able to play a song if the music and the piano keys have corresponding numbers or some such mark to tell them which key to hit.

This is like good material.

Now a master will never stop at the play by number start they have been given but will hear what is not written and know what to change because they are an artist. Some things you can't teach. Music is even more limited than a tree in that there is a VERY finite number of combinations and it is in the presentation more than what you start with.

A master does not need the "play by numbers" or any music to start with because the vision lives inside of them. This is the same with bonsai.

Someone with zero talent may be able to create a bonsai if they have good things to start with and someone holding their hand saying "cut here" "wire this way". However, that same person could never do with "bad material" what an artist could.

 

[milehigh_7]

Always remember you can't make a pigs ear into a silk purse.

Pigs ears don't regrow when you trunk chop them... apples and oranges...

 

[fourteener]

I read a Lenz article where he talked about the idea that not every painting of a famous artist is a masterpiece. Only a certain percentage are truly works of art. Seinfeld had a whole episode dedicated to pondering the actual percentage of truly beautiful people.

I think trees fall into this category. Some trees just aren't "all that" wanting somthing to be great isn't the same as actually being great. I get rid of things that I think are not worth the investment of time. Plant them back in the hood or give them to a beginner to practice with.

Part of good bonsai is having an eye for what is worth the finite amount of time we all have.

 

[drew33998]

I read a Lenz article where he talked about the idea that not every painting of a famous artist is a masterpiece. Only a certain percentage are truly works of art. Seinfeld had a whole episode dedicated to pondering the actual percentage of truly beautiful people.

I think trees fall into this category. Some trees just aren't "all that" wanting somthing to be great isn't the same as actually being great. I get rid of things that I think are not worth the investment of time. Plant them back in the hood or give them to a beginner to practice with.

Part of good bonsai is having an eye for what is worth the finite amount of time we all have.

This of course depends on perspective.

 

[fourteener]

This of course depends on perspective.

So all works of all famous artists are always masterpieces?

 

[drew33998]

So all works of all famous artists are always masterpieces?[/
What appeals to a certain group or person "said masterpiece" may not be appealing at all to other groups or people. Walter palls view of deciduous trees being styled in the upright informal style would be an example of this. Of course this comment is also subjective to my perspective being different from your own. I think perspective is somewhat unique to each person.

 

[daytona1911]

We always say , If its bad material, throw it in the ground or a grow pot and wait ten years.
If its still bad, work it hard and wait ten more. Bad artists can totally ruin even great stock, not just not realize the true potential.

 

[milehigh_7]

Look I am NOT saying that all material is worth the time it would take. I am not even saying a person would always live long enough to accomplish it.

What I am saying is that what we actually do in bonsai is to recreate what a tree looks like after it has either been subjected to continual steady difficulty or great disaster that killed most of the surrounding population.

The tree prior to the rock slide rolling over it or the lightning strike or hundreds of years at 10,500 feet in the Colorado Rockies with extreme UV exposure, wicked winds, heavy snows and wild temperature swings. May not have been good material but after... that is when you all want it; after the true master's hand is done.

Time + harsh training (correct choices shorten the time and improve the chances of success) + survival of the subject at hand = bonsai

 

[milehigh_7]

Look I am NOT saying that all material is worth the time it would take. I am not even saying a person would always live long enough to accomplish it.

What I am saying is that what we actually do in bonsai is to recreate what a tree looks like after it has either been subjected to continual steady difficulty or great disaster that killed most of the surrounding population.

The tree prior to the rock slide rolling over it or the lightning strike or hundreds of years at 10,500 feet in the Colorado Rockies with extreme UV exposure, wicked winds, heavy snows and wild temperature swings. May not have been good material but after... that is when you all want it. After the true master's hand is done.

Time + harsh training (obviously the correct choices in traning shorten the time and increase the odds of survival)+ survival of the subject at hand = bonsai

 

[october]

This has been beat more than any dead horse. The variable you are not considering is time. Given enough time and the ability (read talent) to keep the subject alive through various procedures and the vision to see what you want something to become, there is no such thing as "bad material" only untalented people with no vision.

Good material buys you time and CAN cover for some shortcomings in talent.

I agree especially with the "dead horse" statement. We cannot control what happens on this site. However I can state my opinion and maybe others will agree and something might change...

I feel that the recent increase of these "opinionated, theoretical and hypothetical bonsai threads are not doing much more than taking away from interesting, informative and innovative information threads. You want to know why US bonsai might not be up to snuff. Well, it's not going to get there by discussing and fighting about things that lead to nowhere..with the exception of arguments, threads getting closed and leaving people feeling soured.

You know what I would like... I would like to see things different techniques from others or techniques that I have been introduced to and see them here or share them with others. Such as Master Tsukada's different wiring technique of wiring coils very close together on deciduous trees. I would like to see more threads on things like vein separation from trees etc...

Lastly, I would like to see trees. Have you noticed that with all these threads.. Page after page of opinions that lead nowhere. Yet out of all the pages.. There might be one or 2 trees tops. I would like to see more trees..More showing, more doing. Have a tree, show it, show us what you did, why you did it and where do you want to go with it. Too much typing and not enough pruning, wiring and showing. A $15 juniper or a 300 year old yamadori pine...doesn't matter.. This is a bonsai site, so lets see them. Also, bonsai is an art that is judged and judged closely. Whether you agree, disagee, partake, exhibit or do not exhibit. The goal is to make good bonsai and with bonsai, you must be prepared for criticism..constructive criticism. As always, it should be criticism followed by an explanation of the critique.

Rob

 

[milehigh_7]

^^^^ yea what he said ;-)

 

[Joedes3]

Ditto

Joe De

 

[Darth Tanuki]

This has been beat more than any dead horse. The variable you are not considering is time. Given enough time and the ability (read talent) to keep the subject alive through various procedures and the vision to see what you want something to become, there is no such thing as "bad material" only untalented people with no vision.

Good material buys you time and CAN cover for some shortcomings in talent.

I am considering time and trying to save you some of yours. Here are my thoughts:

good material + good artist = good bonsai

good material + bad artist = bad bonsai with fading potential

bad material + good artist = bad bonsai with nice foliage

bad material + good artist + 10 years = mediocre bonsai

bad material + good artist + 25 years = mediocre bonsai

good material + good artist + 10 years (or less) = show specimen bonsai

seedling + good artist + 10 years = good bonsai with show specimen potential

If you look around and do not see bad material, you are in denial and wasting your time. This is part of what is holding back American bonsai.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I agree especially with the "dead horse" statement. We cannot control what happens on this site. However I can state my opinion and maybe others will agree and something might change...

I feel that the recent increase of these "opinionated, theoretical and hypothetical bonsai threads are not doing much more than taking away from interesting, informative and innovative information threads. You want to know why US bonsai might not be up to snuff. Well, it's not going to get there by discussing and fighting about things that lead to nowhere..with the exception of arguments, threads getting closed and leaving people feeling soured.

You know what I would like... I would like to see things different techniques from others or techniques that I have been introduced to and see them here or share them with others. Such as Master Tsukada's different wiring technique of wiring coils very close together on deciduous trees. I would like to see more threads on things like vein separation from trees etc...

Lastly, I would like to see trees. Have you noticed that with all these threads.. Page after page of opinions that lead no where. Yet out of all the pages.. There might be one or 2 trees tops. I would like to see more trees..More showing, more doing. Have a tree, show it, show us what you did, why you did it and where do you want to go with it. Too much typing and not enough pruning, wiring and showing. A $15 juniper or a 300 year old yamadori pine...doesn't matter.. This is a bonsai site, so lets see them. Also, bonsai is an art that is judged and judged closely. Whether you agree, disagee, partake, exhibit or do not exhibit. The goal is to make good bonsai and with bonsai, you must be prepared for criticism..constructive criticism. As always, it should be criticism followed by an explanation of the critique.

Rob

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Poink88]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

We know but this is a forum. I am a newbie, I share my "sticks and stumps". I share my pathetic tree developments and even share my crazy ideas...whether they lead to disaster or mediocre bonsai, I share.

How about you share yours? Maybe we all can learn from it.

Thank you.