Bald Cypress Forest Planting

[Cypress]

Hey All,

So with some of my tax return money, I decided to make a couple serious pre-bonsai purchases online. This being one of them, 5 collected bald cypress which I intend on creating a forest / group planting with. Snagged them on Ebay this morning for a very reasonable price, these are the the eBay photos, they should be showing up on my doorstep by friday:



So I have a number of questions/topics I would like to get feedback on:

1. What is the best way for me to produce buttressing on these trees at this point?

2. Is it wise for me to plant these in separate containers to develop them, or to plant them together this season? Or, plant them in the ground... basically asking will ground growing produce buttressing faster?

3.One obvious challenge at this point is that all these trees are very close in height and width, which will need to change for a forest planting to work well. Right now I plan on chopping them at different heights, based on whatever slight trunk width differences there are right now. Then using sacrifice branches to increase width/taper on the trees that will be the taller ones in the planting. Any thoughts on Bald Cypress sacrifice branches?

In terms of styling, I am actually considering a more or less Flat-Top style. I find John Geanangel's flat top BC very inspiring and original. It seems one of the big issues with bald cypresses is growing out taper with a new leader, where the original chop can still be VERY visible. I think the the flat top style helps avoid this being such a possible eye sore. On a last note, I have 2 very small bald cypress saplings I will grow out for a while and incorporate into the design to create a 'grander' scale.

Thanks for any and all feedback/advice.

-Mike

 

[Cypress]

Let me add that, I went into buying these guys knowing that it may be very hard for me to actually develop buttressing. I've read a few threads on the topic. Though it does seem like there are different opinions out there so if there was a reasonable method and reasonable time frame for producing even slight buttresses I will probably pursue it.

Though on the other hand i think I'll be OK without, and you can see in the second picture I provided that a few of the trees have some decent root flare on their lower, larger roots already. I will just have to have a good look for if reverse taper exists between the top smaller roots and the lower large roots on any of them, then figure out how to address that.

 

[Jester217300]

When you say you want to develop buttressing.. are you talking about fluking? I'm not sure if we're speaking the same language. For extreme taper I'd just grow and trunk chop. I think you will have a difficult time getting these to fluke out..

I am fairly certain these are nursery grown and not collected trees. This seller's trees all suffer from the same problems which has prevented me from making a purchase. It doesn't look like they've been given any special attention in cultivation as bonsai. The circling roots are a problem, the multiple tiered root systems are a problem, and the inconsistent and disproportionate spread of big roots is a problem. Any of the nebari worthy roots have huge gaps on the opposite circumference of the tree. If you were to develop the opposite side of the root system the shape and sizes of the nebari would be offputting.

For me steps forward would be to define the base of each tree and remove all roots above and below. Decide if it's best to develop juvenile roots, layer the tree, or use some of the large roots present knowing that anything you develop going forward will be significantly smaller. I would then plant them all in the ground and let your new root system develop. It will take a long time for these to fluke out, you need a pretty mature root system to start to see the effects of the root system on the trunk.

On a design note, I also like John G's flat top trees but they have much better taper, existing fluking, and flat top trees are generally the very mature trees of the species. As these trees look fairly juvenile I don't think I'd go with a flat top forest unless you want to develop them individually for years and years. After spending a year or two on the roots I'd chop at different heights and eventually make a standard conifer, branches turned down forest.

 

[johng]

Hey Cypress...thanks for kudos.

If you want buttressing I would put them in the ground...preferably a moist area with lots of wind...let them get tall over the course of several years.

That alone should solve the problem of all the trees being the same size. I know its exciting to start new projects and you have to be the one to make all the decisions....But if these were my trees, I would spend 3-5 years developing them before ever even thinking about creating the forest. This will allow you some time in the ground to grow the bases...some time in a pot to prepare the roots for being in a shallow container...and some time to develop character in the branches and trunks....in the long run this will result in a better forest planting.

You have probably already seen this but here is a video in which I work on a group planting of flat-top type trees
[video=youtube_share;4kL4_zSFWG0]http://youtu.be/4kL4_zSFWG0[/video]

 

[Cypress]

When you say you want to develop buttressing.. are you talking about fluking? I'm not sure if we're speaking the same language. For extreme taper I'd just grow and trunk chop. I think you will have a difficult time getting these to fluke out..

I am fairly certain these are nursery grown and not collected trees. This seller's trees all suffer from the same problems which has prevented me from making a purchase. It doesn't look like they've been given any special attention in cultivation as bonsai. The circling roots are a problem, the multiple tiered root systems are a problem, and the inconsistent and disproportionate spread of big roots is a problem. Any of the nebari worthy roots have huge gaps on the opposite circumference of the tree. If you were to develop the opposite side of the root system the shape and sizes of the nebari would be offputting.

For me steps forward would be to define the base of each tree and remove all roots above and below. Decide if it's best to develop juvenile roots, layer the tree, or use some of the large roots present knowing that anything you develop going forward will be significantly smaller. I would then plant them all in the ground and let your new root system develop. It will take a long time for these to fluke out, you need a pretty mature root system to start to see the effects of the root system on the trunk.

On a design note, I also like John G's flat top trees but they have much better taper, existing fluking, and flat top trees are generally the very mature trees of the species. As these trees look fairly juvenile I don't think I'd go with a flat top forest unless you want to develop them individually for years and years. After spending a year or two on the roots I'd chop at different heights and eventually make a standard conifer, branches turned down forest.

If by fluking, you mean fluting, then yes. Fluting being the deep ridges on the buttress. I appreciate your advice, but theres a couple things you said like... chopping off all of the roots, that seem a little misguided to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

On your assessment of the initial quality of the trees... I agree they are not the perfect trees, but I live in upstate new york and buying this many BC of this size from a nursery up here would most definitely cost alot more than this purchase... for similar or lower quality trees.

In terms of taper, since my vision is a forest planting with 5-7 trees I do not need extreme taper, nor do I want it. As that would be unbecoming of a forest planting aesthetic.

 

[Cypress]

Hey Cypress...thanks for kudos.

If you want buttressing I would put them in the ground...preferably a moist area with lots of wind...let them get tall over the course of several years.

That alone should solve the problem of all the trees being the same size. I know its exciting to start new projects and you have to be the one to make all the decisions....But if these were my trees, I would spend 3-5 years developing them before ever even thinking about creating the forest. This will allow you some time in the ground to grow the bases...some time in a pot to prepare the roots for being in a shallow container...and some time to develop character in the branches and trunks....in the long run this will result in a better forest planting.

You have probably already seen this but here is a video in which I work on a group planting of flat-top type trees
[video=youtube_share;4kL4_zSFWG0]http://youtu.be/4kL4_zSFWG0[/video]

Thanks for your response John. Yea, i figured that working on these separately for a few years before trying to plant them together would probably be the way to go. I will probably plant them in the ground as you suggest. The place I would be planting them is a large open field that has very wet ground and even standing puddles for most of the year. It seems that there is a spring that kind of bubbles up through the ground in this spot. The field is right by the side of a large lake too so, the wind part of that equation is definitely there.

Is there anything you would do to the soil to prepare a ground planting? It is somewhat heavy clay soil, by the way. I was actually probably going to dig a bit of a depression where i plant them so that they will be even wetter.

 

[coh]

If by fluking, you mean fluting, then yes. Fluting being the deep ridges on the buttress. I appreciate your advice, but theres a couple things you said like... chopping off all of the roots, that seem a little misguided to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

On your assessment of the initial quality of the trees... I agree they are not the perfect trees, but I live in upstate new york and buying this many BC of this size from a nursery up here would most definitely cost alot more than this purchase... for similar or lower quality trees.

In terms of taper, since my vision is a forest planting with 5-7 trees I do not need extreme taper, nor do I want it. As that would be unbecoming of a forest planting aesthetic.

I'm surprised these have no fluting! I bought a single bald cypress from a local nursery about a year and a half ago, completely pot grown from a seed or cutting, and it had much better flare/fluting than any of these. I've always kind of thought that pretty much all bald cypress developed the fluting early.

As for cost - I think the tree I purchased was about $30. It's hard to compare sizes with your photo, but the one I purchased had a trunk diameter of about 1". It's been in the ground for 2 seasons now, and the trunk base is 2.5"+. I planted it in my standard growing bed, soil amended with used bonsai soil and bagged manure. Don't know if there's any real advantage to planting in a particularly wet location.

Chris

 

[Jester217300]

If by fluking, you mean fluting, then yes. Fluting being the deep ridges on the buttress. I appreciate your advice, but theres a couple things you said like... chopping off all of the roots, that seem a little misguided to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

On your assessment of the initial quality of the trees... I agree they are not the perfect trees, but I live in upstate new york and buying this many BC of this size from a nursery up here would most definitely cost alot more than this purchase... for similar or lower quality trees.

In terms of taper, since my vision is a forest planting with 5-7 trees I do not need extreme taper, nor do I want it. As that would be unbecoming of a forest planting aesthetic.

Yeah, fluting, sorry, brain is dead today. Definitely didn't say to remove all of the roots. You've got a 6" vertical span of roots there, you need to work that down. I recommended finding the base of the tree that you like and remove the roots above and below.

I agree that extreme taper doesn't fit a forest planting, which (to me) goes along with them not being great for flat top pieces.

Either way they should be fun to work with.

 

[johng]

First...let me say this..I did advise you to plant in the ground but I didn't consider your winters when I said that...my mistake! I have zero experience with BC in your climate... It sounds to me like you have given this project a good deal of thought and I suspect you have probably already decided that BC will be ok in the ground in your location??? Maybe I am wrong, but I just want to make sure you check with some locals or know of BC already growing successfully in your area.

Ok...about the clay...hmmm..I don't have much experience here either. I can tell you that where I collect there is about a 12" layer of muck/mulm over a much thicker layer of kaolin(very dense clay). The roots of trees, even the tap root, only penetrate the clay a few inches...this leads to the development of very strong lateral roots spreading through the muck layer....does this in turn lead to better fluting??? sure seems like it! Perhaps it would be possible to apply/create the same principles in your situation?? I think it's worth a shot.

With that said here is something else to consider...

At the winter silhouette show this year, Bill V. prefaced his critique by saying that these are his beliefs and experiences as of this moment in time...and added that they have changed over time and are likely to continue to change in the future... not an exact quote but I think you get the gist. At one time I believed that growing BC submerged was the best way to do it...even recommended using pots without drainage holes. (and unfortunately that advice is still out there on youtube) Since then, my belief and practices have changed! If you are going to grow BC in water it is very important that there is regular water and air exchange in the growing medium...perhaps this is accomplished through evaporation or drainage, or some other means....for me the more frequently(daily) this happens the better my trees grow.

I am not really sure how to handle this in your growing situation??? Perhaps if we consider everything, it might be better to use containers to grow out your trees...you can more easily control flooding(if that is your choice) and you could also better protect the trees in winter. Since its really about the journey, you might want to experiment with both methods.

One other thing I would do if these were mine...

And this personal preference... I like to have at least one or two smaller groups of trees within my forest plantings...usually this is accomplished by planting the 2 or 3 trunks very closely...even touching while creating the forest. You might consider taking a group of 2 or 3 of your trees and planting them very closely together while you are growing them out...In the best case, they will fuse together. For me, this would add even more appeal/character to the final grouping.

John

 

[Jester217300]

I'm surprised these have no fluting! I bought a single bald cypress from a local nursery about a year and a half ago, completely pot grown from a seed or cutting, and it had much better flare/fluting than any of these. I've always kind of thought that pretty much all bald cypress developed the fluting early.

I wonder if it's a difference in regional BC variety. The bark on these looks different from what I have seen in the past.

 

[coh]

First...let me say this..I did advise you to plant in the ground but I didn't consider your winters when I said that...my mistake! I have zero experience with BC in your climate... It sounds to me like you have given this project a good deal of thought and I suspect you have probably already decided that BC will be ok in the ground in your location??? Maybe I am wrong, but I just want to make sure you check with some locals or know of BC already growing successfully in your area.

John

Yes...where were these trees shipped from? If it was somewhere in the deep south, I'm not sure I'd plant them all in the ground right away. Maybe one or two, and see how they do before planting all of them.

I can only speak for my climate - a bit further north but probably not as cold (courtesy of Lake Ontario). I've had a bald cypress in the ground since April 2012. Still waiting for it to wake up this year, but we're still waiting for a lot of things to wake up. This was one of the most severe winters in memory, so if it comes back fine that should raise confidence. I'll try to remember to let you know.

As for the roots, why not plant them (if you do) on boards or tiles to force the roots to grow horizontally? Put them in good garden soil on a board/tile and they should do well, and a lot less messy than working in a swamp!

Chris

 

[Cypress]

Yeah, fluting, sorry, brain is dead today. Definitely didn't say to remove all of the roots. You've got a 6" vertical span of roots there, you need to work that down. I recommended finding the base of the tree that you like and remove the roots above and below.

I agree that extreme taper doesn't fit a forest planting, which (to me) goes along with them not being great for flat top pieces.

Either way they should be fun to work with.

Haha, ok I know what you're saying, i just misunderstood you. Thanks.

P.S.
Another thing on styling... even if they're not sort of "full flat-top", i actually am not a hug fan of styling bald cypress with all their branches angling down right away out of the trunk, like a spruce may look in nature... I notice that most of the branches on young or old baldies will actually angle upward out of the trunk. I suppose it's kind of hard to describe what I'm seeing in my head though haha.

 

[Cypress]

I'm surprised these have no fluting! I bought a single bald cypress from a local nursery about a year and a half ago, completely pot grown from a seed or cutting, and it had much better flare/fluting than any of these. I've always kind of thought that pretty much all bald cypress developed the fluting early.

As for cost - I think the tree I purchased was about $30. It's hard to compare sizes with your photo, but the one I purchased had a trunk diameter of about 1". It's been in the ground for 2 seasons now, and the trunk base is 2.5"+. I planted it in my standard growing bed, soil amended with used bonsai soil and bagged manure. Don't know if there's any real advantage to planting in a particularly wet location.

Chris

Yea, I mean, you're not far from me in Rochester... but it's still hard to even find Baldies at nurseries around me. I went to three different nurseries on sunday and only one had bald cypress, much smaller than these, for about 45 dollars each. I may pick up one or two of them just so I can get some better size variation for my forest planting. We'll see.

And of course the infamous bald cypress in water debate rages on haha.

 

[Cypress]

First...let me say this..I did advise you to plant in the ground but I didn't consider your winters when I said that...my mistake! I have zero experience with BC in your climate... It sounds to me like you have given this project a good deal of thought and I suspect you have probably already decided that BC will be ok in the ground in your location??? Maybe I am wrong, but I just want to make sure you check with some locals or know of BC already growing successfully in your area.

Ok...about the clay...hmmm..I don't have much experience here either. I can tell you that where I collect there is about a 12" layer of muck/mulm over a much thicker layer of kaolin(very dense clay). The roots of trees, even the tap root, only penetrate the clay a few inches...this leads to the development of very strong lateral roots spreading through the muck layer....does this in turn lead to better fluting??? sure seems like it! Perhaps it would be possible to apply/create the same principles in your situation?? I think it's worth a shot.

With that said here is something else to consider...

At the winter silhouette show this year, Bill V. prefaced his critique by saying that these are his beliefs and experiences as of this moment in time...and added that they have changed over time and are likely to continue to change in the future... not an exact quote but I think you get the gist. At one time I believed that growing BC submerged was the best way to do it...even recommended using pots without drainage holes. (and unfortunately that advice is still out there on youtube) Since then, my belief and practices have changed! If you are going to grow BC in water it is very important that there is regular water and air exchange in the growing medium...perhaps this is accomplished through evaporation or drainage, or some other means....for me the more frequently(daily) this happens the better my trees grow.

I am not really sure how to handle this in your growing situation??? Perhaps if we consider everything, it might be better to use containers to grow out your trees...you can more easily control flooding(if that is your choice) and you could also better protect the trees in winter. Since its really about the journey, you might want to experiment with both methods.

One other thing I would do if these were mine...

And this personal preference... I like to have at least one or two smaller groups of trees within my forest plantings...usually this is accomplished by planting the 2 or 3 trunks very closely...even touching while creating the forest. You might consider taking a group of 2 or 3 of your trees and planting them very closely together while you are growing them out...In the best case, they will fuse together. For me, this would add even more appeal/character to the final grouping.

John

Yea, Bald Cypress are kind of an anomaly in the tree world, growing mostly in the deep south swamps though at the same time they grow perfectly well up here. One of the public parks in Ithaca has around twenty 50 foot tall bald cypress growing just fine. There's a really great one growing in syracuse, NY where I went to college... and depending who you ask or what list you look up Syracuse is often listed as the snowiest city in the United States. I guess that Bald Cypress used to grow very far north before the last ice age and when the glaciers moved in they pushed them much further south and they just never made their way back up!

On the clay note, i just dug a few hawthorn and some other species out of this area a couple weeks ago, and they all have very strong lateral roots and basically NO taproot. I think a combination of the clay soil and how wet the ground stays probably. So their roots don't really need to dive deep for any reason.

The wetness in this field also kind of has a flow to it, hard to describe. Not really a stream but more like a series of pools that slowly flow into each other. Theres one spot you can see water bubbling up out of the ground from the spring even. So the water should stay relatively oxygenated I would think. But also alot of this is just wet ground, not necessarily pools, and it does kind of alternate between dryer and wet depending on the season/weather.

And on the smaller trees, i've got two pencil thick baldies growing already, I will probably repot them into a pond basket together. Thanks for all your input, much appreciated.

 

[Cypress]

Yes...where were these trees shipped from? If it was somewhere in the deep south, I'm not sure I'd plant them all in the ground right away. Maybe one or two, and see how they do before planting all of them.

Chris

Yea they are coming from the deep south. I'll keep this in mind. My two little baldies in pots are almost completely leafed out as of this week.

 

[Cypress]

They arrived yesterday morning in good condition, and the seller even threw in two free trees of almost the same size. All in all I'm satisfied with my purchase, it could be better developed material but for the price I can't complain. This also gives me an opportunity to experiment with field growing which I have not done yet.

I think that I may refrain from planting them in the ground this season, as they have already been through alot. Bare rooted, shipped, and not much foliage on them at the moment. I'm scared of planting them in the ground and having them die before they establish. Though if anybody has experience with ground planting baldies in the north I would very highly value your input. I know they are supposed to be very hard to kill, so depending on any feedback I get I may plant some of them or all of them in the ground.

 

[coh]

You got two extras, so why not plant 2 in the ground?

BTW, the buds on mine are getting ready to pop, looks like it came through the winter just fine.

Chris