Bare Rooting Pines

[roberthu]

Today I visited a local grower who has been growing some materials in his farm for over 25 years and some of the JBP are absolutely powerful (5" plus trunk). After placing a few orders to be dug up in the coming spring, we started talking about repotting. He said the soil in the farm are mostly red clay and they fall loose very easily during the digging process and that made me worry that I may not have an intact root ball with enough native soil next year. However, the owner and another hobbyist told me they actually bare rooted and washed these JBP’s without any issue. As a matter of fact, these JBP just kept growing like nothing happened. This made me wonder about why we hear conifers should not be bare rooted. After all, balance of water and oxygen is the key and clay usually holds way too much water and not enough oxygen.

Ryan Neil has said in multiple videos that with nursery stock or collected materials, the roots will grow into the APL mix easily because it is superior to clay or other organic soil in regards to the balance of water and oxygen. So why don’t we replace all soil in one go? Is it just to preserve beneficial bacteria? If so, then there are products that will promote beneficial bacteria to colonize. Can we just use that and get all fresh soil in the pot to promote better root growth?

 

[0soyoung]

My experience is that they don't recover from all the root damage caused by bare rooting, which typically involves a fair amount of root combing. On the other hand, I have no trouble bare rooting JBP that has been growing in Turface as the roots basically let go of the Turface particles when immersed in water - it simply shakes out. So, I don't think as much damage is done when dry-ish clay or whatever soil simply shakes out as opposed to the damage done when digging out soil that is strongly bonded to the roots.

One could leave a clayey root ball intact and let the roots grow from there into a better substrate/soil. This is exactly what one does with landscape planting of ball-and-burlap trees. It tends to not be done with bonsai simply because the extent of the clayey soil root ball is about the same size (or maybe larger) than the size of the root pad desired for bonsai. So, we've got to get the nursery soil out of the roots.

The nursery trees I buy are usually in composted bark chips, so roots are growing through old chips. So I only bare root one side of the tree, plant the works in bonsai substrate, and wait until the tree is growing vigorously to do the other HBR to finish the job, usually after another year.

So, I think go with what your grower is telling you and don't worry about soil falling away or being shaken off. Don't be too aggressive from there. As far as beneficial myco/bacteria, I think they will show up on their own from your local environment.

 

[roberthu]

My experience is that they don't recover from all the root damage caused by bare rooting, which typically involves a fair amount of root combing. On the other hand, I have no trouble bare rooting JBP that has been growing in Turface as the roots basically let go of the Turface particles when immersed in water - it simply shakes out. So, I don't think as much damage is done when dry-ish clay or whatever soil simply shakes out as opposed to the damage done when digging out soil that is strongly bonded to the roots.

One could leave a clayey root ball intact and let the roots grow from there into a better substrate/soil. This is exactly what one does with landscape planting of ball-and-burlap trees. It tends to not be done with bonsai simply because the extent of the clayey soil root ball is about the same size (or maybe larger) than the size of the root pad desired for bonsai. So, we've got to get the nursery soil out of the roots.

The nursery trees I buy are usually in composted bark chips, so roots are growing through old chips. So I only bare root one side of the tree, plant the works in bonsai substrate, and wait until the tree is growing vigorously to do the other HBR to finish the job, usually after another year.

So, I think go with what your grower is telling you and don't worry about soil falling away or being shaken off. Don't be too aggressive from there. As far as beneficial myco/bacteria, I think they will show up on their own from your local environment.

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. Not damaging the roots is more important than not bare root the tree. I have similar experience with materials grown in turface. The turface just falls loose because they don't breakdown and you get a handful of thick and fine roots like they have been growing in water the entire time.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Also JBP most vigorous like weeds. Will take unusual abuse barring extreme weather event.

 

[Shibui]

I also grow JBP in the ground. Just like the grower mentioned I also shake of as much soil as possible when the trees are dug. Garden soil is NOT good in pots so it is better to get rid of it before potting up.
I regularly bare root pot grown JBP too and do not seem to have the problems so many others talk about.
Landscape trees are a completely different game. The roots with clay are going into soil which will also probably have clay. The trees will also have good drainage because of being in the ground.
Planting in pots is a completely different situation and that's where having clay in the roots can cause real problems. Much safer to get it out before putting trees in pots.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

When I started growing pines, I didn't know that it was considered bad practice to bare root them, so I took the habit of bare rooting them. As I am quite satisfied with this practice, I don't intend to change, and I wash the root thoroughly at repot time especially when lifting trees of the ground.
JPB can endure quite harsh root treatment, I think.

 

[roberthu]

I also grow JBP in the ground. Just like the grower mentioned I also shake of as much soil as possible when the trees are dug. Garden soil is NOT good in pots so it is better to get rid of it before potting up.
I regularly bare root pot grown JBP too and do not seem to have the problems so many others talk about.
Landscape trees are a completely different game. The roots with clay are going into soil which will also probably have clay. The trees will also have good drainage because of being in the ground.
Planting in pots is a completely different situation and that's where having clay in the roots can cause real problems. Much safer to get it out before putting trees in pots.

Wow wish I knew this before my own field grown JBP this spring. I kept the center root ball and I have had so much issue with watering. Fingers crossed it is still alive but not vigorous. I am going to change out most of the soil in the spring and let it recover for a year or two.

 

[roberthu]

When I started growing pines, I didn't know that it was considered bad practice to bare root them, so I took the habit of bare rooting them. As I am quite satisfied with this practice, I don't intend to change, and I wash the root thoroughly at repot time especially when lifting trees of the ground.
JPB can endure quite harsh root treatment, I think.

That’s a pretty big pine! Glad to know mature pines can be handled like this. Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

One could leave a clayey root ball intact and let the roots grow from there into a better substrate/soil. This is exactly what one does with landscape planting of ball-and-burlap trees.

in my experience, this is a recipe for absolute disaster.

 

[August44]

I think it makes a huge difference in what one is working with. I collect pines and other conifers in the Mts here where I live. They DO NOT have the root system that I am seeing above at all...very much lacking fine roots and I think the more you disturb the root ball the more problems (ie death) you will have. In most cases, I am not dealing with clay for native soils, so I leave 50-75% native soils, pot in cut down nursery pots with bonsai soils and leave them alone for two years and let them develop the fine roots needed. The first year I collected, I bare rooted and washed most of them, and lost all of the bigger ones the first summer. I takes patience to leave then alone for two years. I am working on that still.