Bare-rooting young pines?

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I picked up a few JWP and JBP seedlings last year from my local nursery. https://phutu.com/care-of-japanese-black-pine/, @Eric Schrader of Bonsaify recommends bare-rooting young japanese black pines under 5 years old. I guess my question is if anybody else has experience with this method? What exactly do we mean by bare-rooting? I've watched a lot of Eric's videos but the trees he is working on are I'm guessing his own seedlings that he cultured in his perlite and coco coir mix vs my seedlings that are in a more organic soil used by the bonsai nursery that raises them.
Would this practice also work with Japanese White pine? I don't think mine are grafted.
tempImagee5sav3.png
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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With bare rooting we mean removing all the soil, washing it out with some water, or shaking it off gently if it's dry. Then repotting them into a better suited soil.
I've done it, and when timed right they don't skip a beat. This seems to be the case on most pines, so I think JWP would work too.

Older trees don't like it though. So take caution on the older ones.

If you think it's too much of a risk, think about doing a half of the soil, and going in the next year to do the other half. You could do quarters as well.
 

Shibui

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Seedlings and young pines tolerate bare root no problem at all. I also root prune quite hard during the first 3 years to get a really good nebari started. My soil mix is 70% pine bark so organic bare root is no problem either.
I think it is good practice to get trees into your preferred soil mix at the earliest opportunity. Trying to grow trees in different soil mixes can cause big problems with watering and fertilizing.
 

Bonds Guy

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I've barerooted young japanese black pines in spring 2 years in a row and pruned a lot of roots. Like @Wires_Guy_wires said, they don't skip a beat. Here's one done in 2020:

J.B. Pine - White Lie 2.3.1.JPGJ.B. Pine - White Lie 2.3.4.JPG

Japanese white pines are not so much fans of this..... at least in my experience.
 

Drcuisine

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JBP love getting air on their roots. Lots of media can work. The key is watering schedule, drainage and not letting them get too wet. I bare root pines when ever changing pots or soil. I used to start seedlings in soil but not use 90% non organic grow media. I just reported 25 JBP in 80/15/5 3 size perlite/peat moss/oyster mushroom mycelium.
I add mushroom mycelium
mushroom logs from saywee.


They are $7 each. These are for grey oysters which are not quite as symbiotic as other pine loving mushrooms but it sees to be working and I get little oyster mushrooms popping out all over the place.
I have had great luck with pine bark and compost as well. Eric really knows his stuff. Jonas Dupuich also grows JBP in mostly #3 perlite with excellent results. I don’t know if he adds other ingredients but it looked like mostly perlite when
I used to have trouble with young seedlings dying because of rot on their delicate roots just after germination.

pines really don’t need that much water to thrive.
 
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JBP love getting air on their roots. Lots of media can work. The key is watering schedule, drainage and not letting them get too wet. I bare root pines when ever changing pots or soil. I used to start seedlings in soil but not use 90% non organic grow media. I just reported 25 JBP in 80/15/5 3 size perlite/peat moss/oyster mushroom mycelium.
I add mushroom mycelium
mushroom logs from saywee.


They are $7 each. These are for grey oysters which are not quite as symbiotic as other pine loving mushrooms but it sees to be working and I get little oyster mushrooms popping out all over the place.
I have had great luck with pine bark and compost as well. Eric really knows his stuff. Jonas Dupuich also grows JBP in mostly #3 perlite with excellent results. I don’t know if he adds other ingredients but it looked like mostly perlite when
I used to have trouble with young seedlings dying because of rot on their delicate roots just after germination.

pines really don’t need that much water to thrive.

You get oyster mushrooms popping out of where? You know they eat the tree, right?
 
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I didnt think oyster mushrooms will colonize conifers and I’m pretty sure they only colonize dead wood.

You're right, but they can grow on sick trees too. It's one of those thing I wouldn't mess with personally, but I'd be interested to hear if I'm wrong to feel that way.
 

Hermes33

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I've barerooted young japanese black pines in spring 2 years in a row and pruned a lot of roots. Like @Wires_Guy_wires said, they don't skip a beat. Here's one done in 2020:

View attachment 420334View attachment 420335

Japanese white pines are not so much fans of this..... at least in my experience.
How many inches of root did you leave after bare rooting? Where was the right picture cut from?
 
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How many inches of root did you leave after bare rooting? Where was the right picture cut from?
Later in the season I visited Left Coast Bonsai and repotted an entire flat of jbp Seedlings. We cut them back to within an inch of the stem. Unless they only have a few course roots then you may want to train them for exposed root style.
 
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While we’re here, you may want to get the wire off the little pine 2nd from right 😲
Only a tiny piece of wire showing now. I think it’ll be completely swallowed up by summer, I’m hoping. I’m planning to keep this one under 10cm. They all put on a lot of growth after getting potted up in pumice in the pond baskets.
 

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Master Shrader knows his stuff. Bare rooting very young pines OK usually. Washing off roots not such hot idea. It removes michorrizae from roots best kept present for optimum growth. Adding "new" packaged michorrizae does not necessarily replace kind tree already had so generally makes you, seller feel better than tree does at careless handling😵‍💫.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Washing off roots not such hot idea. It removes michorrizae from roots best kept present for optimum growth.
I don't believe this is entirely true.
Back in my days at the tissue culture lab we used to try to get field grown plants established in a petri dish-like container. It takes extensive disinfection (10 min 70% ethanol, 8 minutes of bleach solution, 3 rinses with autoclaved water), antibiotics, re-culturing and physically cutting off fresh tissue to get fungi out of plants, especially roots.
And still we had to do things in fifty fold to get one or two "clean" plants that were then placed on culture media containing plant preservative mixture (PPM) to actually beat the microbes back into the plant.
Bacteria? Sure! The ones that don't form a biofilm or colony can sure be washed off with ease. But they multiply quadratically, so that's an issue that's resolved in a couple days.

If myc washes off easily, would cuttings have none of the same myc as their parents? Would root cuttings - where the entire rootball is removed - not have the same issue?
How does myc enter a pot? If it comes from the air, we might be talking about a problem that resolves itself. If the myc is present inside the seed, then it can very well also be present in the seedling itself; it had to get in that seed from some place, which would mean the parent flowers were containing these spores or fungi, which means that the offspring might as well contain them on various other locations.
If the spores are washed off by water, and the myc itself is too, we could save a little of that water and re-inoculate the tree.

Quite interesting when you think about the mechanics of this situation.
I've had cases of large lumps of organic soil being stuck in the rootbase, and I washed those out instead of poking and tearing them out, which I believe provides just as big of an advantage as a fungal colony. A healthy and undamaged bundle of roots outperforms a fungus that needs regrowth in a fresh soil.. At least, that's what I believe.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Washing off roots not such hot idea. It removes michorrizae from roots best kept present for optimum growth. Adding "new" packaged michorrizae does not necessarily replace kind tree already had so generally makes you, seller feel better than tree does at careless handling😵‍💫.
Hmm…. This is partly right…First a tree’s endofungi doesn’t wash off. Second it can’t be added either.

There’s a fascinating talk about soil fungi and bacteria on Asymmetry with Dr. Karen O’Hanlon a couple episodes ago. In it and in the email responses she made to me afterwards, Karen explains that a tree gains all its endofungi upon seed germination.… (some within the seed itself). Bacteria is a different story. This fungi remains and proliferates within the tree from then on.…. and adding endo fungi supplements will not help…. also cuttings contain the endo fungi…. and some bacteria too.

Her company actually manufactures compatible bacteria that can act to supplement plant health…best used at repotting time. Peter Warren is one of the bonsai practitioners that are testing these product. Check out Probio carbon.

Thus one can not wash off the endo fungi and bacteria which transits within/without the plant via the mycorrhizal highway... with minor exceptions.

The mycelium one sees in bonsai media is ectofungal.

I asked Michael Hagedorn today about his thoughts on why older trees and most conifers in particular have issues with being bare rooted. It seems from what I heard, these older trees, in general, aren’t as resilient as younger trees and just don’t adapt as well to having their entire rhizosphere removed.

cheers
DSD sends
 

Potawatomi13

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I asked Michael Hagedorn today about his thoughts on why older trees and most conifers in particular have issues with being bare rooted. It seems from what I heard, these older trees, in general, aren’t as resilient as younger trees and just don’t adapt as well to having their entire rhizosphere removed.
My whole exact point😁.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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…and yet this point seems to have no direct relation to mycorrhizae. ;)

An argument might be made for effective root surface vs mass or “ossification” of vascular pathways slowing nutrient etc down/uptake?

cheers
DSD sends
 

trigo

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I don't believe this is entirely true.
Back in my days at the tissue culture lab we used to try to get field grown plants established in a petri dish-like container. It takes extensive disinfection (10 min 70% ethanol, 8 minutes of bleach solution, 3 rinses with autoclaved water), antibiotics, re-culturing and physically cutting off fresh tissue to get fungi out of plants, especially roots.
And still we had to do things in fifty fold to get one or two "clean" plants that were then placed on culture media containing plant preservative mixture (PPM) to actually beat the microbes back into the plant.
Bacteria? Sure! The ones that don't form a biofilm or colony can sure be washed off with ease. But they multiply quadratically, so that's an issue that's resolved in a couple days.

If myc washes off easily, would cuttings have none of the same myc as their parents? Would root cuttings - where the entire rootball is removed - not have the same issue?
How does myc enter a pot? If it comes from the air, we might be talking about a problem that resolves itself. If the myc is present inside the seed, then it can very well also be present in the seedling itself; it had to get in that seed from some place, which would mean the parent flowers were containing these spores or fungi, which means that the offspring might as well contain them on various other locations.
If the spores are washed off by water, and the myc itself is too, we could save a little of that water and re-inoculate the tree.

Quite interesting when you think about the mechanics of this situation.
I've had cases of large lumps of organic soil being stuck in the rootbase, and I washed those out instead of poking and tearing them out, which I believe provides just as big of an advantage as a fungal colony. A healthy and undamaged bundle of roots outperforms a fungus that needs regrowth in a fresh soil.. At least, that's what I believe.
Hmm…. This is partly right…First a tree’s endofungi doesn’t wash off. Second it can’t be added either.

There’s a fascinating talk about soil fungi and bacteria on Asymmetry with Dr. Karen O’Hanlon a couple episodes ago. In it and in the email responses she made to me afterwards, Karen explains that a tree gains all its endofungi upon seed germination.… (some within the seed itself). Bacteria is a different story. This fungi remains and proliferates within the tree from then on.…. and adding endo fungi supplements will not help…. also cuttings contain the endo fungi…. and some bacteria too.

Her company actually manufactures compatible bacteria that can act to supplement plant health…best used at repotting time. Peter Warren is one of the bonsai practitioners that are testing these product. Check out Probio carbon.

Thus one can not wash off the endo fungi and bacteria which transits within/without the plant via the mycorrhizal highway... with minor exceptions.

The mycelium one sees in bonsai media is ectofungal.

I asked Michael Hagedorn today about his thoughts on why older trees and most conifers in particular have issues with being bare rooted. It seems from what I heard, these older trees, in general, aren’t as resilient as younger trees and just don’t adapt as well to having their entire rhizosphere removed.

cheers
DSD sends
This makes total sense to me. much more than "never bareroot because you are removing the mycorrhiza"
 

Potawatomi13

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…and yet this point seems to have no direct relation to mycorrhizae. ;)

An argument might be made for effective root surface vs mass or “ossification” of vascular pathways slowing nutrient etc down/uptake?

cheers
DSD sends
IF one wants to make argument;). However seems as different peripheral subject to do with root pruning rather than dirt removal🤨.
 

NamesakE

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I don't believe this is entirely true.
Back in my days at the tissue culture lab we used to try to get field grown plants established in a petri dish-like container. It takes extensive disinfection (10 min 70% ethanol, 8 minutes of bleach solution, 3 rinses with autoclaved water), antibiotics, re-culturing and physically cutting off fresh tissue to get fungi out of plants, especially roots.
And still we had to do things in fifty fold to get one or two "clean" plants that were then placed on culture media containing plant preservative mixture (PPM) to actually beat the microbes back into the plant.
Bacteria? Sure! The ones that don't form a biofilm or colony can sure be washed off with ease. But they multiply quadratically, so that's an issue that's resolved in a couple days.

If myc washes off easily, would cuttings have none of the same myc as their parents? Would root cuttings - where the entire rootball is removed - not have the same issue?
How does myc enter a pot? If it comes from the air, we might be talking about a problem that resolves itself. If the myc is present inside the seed, then it can very well also be present in the seedling itself; it had to get in that seed from some place, which would mean the parent flowers were containing these spores or fungi, which means that the offspring might as well contain them on various other locations.
If the spores are washed off by water, and the myc itself is too, we could save a little of that water and re-inoculate the tree.

Quite interesting when you think about the mechanics of this situation.
I've had cases of large lumps of organic soil being stuck in the rootbase, and I washed those out instead of poking and tearing them out, which I believe provides just as big of an advantage as a fungal colony. A healthy and undamaged bundle of roots outperforms a fungus that needs regrowth in a fresh soil.. At least, that's what I believe.
Super informative thanks! I'm reporting my first conifer (a Black hills spruce I believe, one of the ones they sell add Christmas trees at nurseries) and I want to get rid of all the soil, trim the roots, and repot in a colonder. The local hydroponics store offers stump tea that I want to reinnocculate with. Glad to get advice from somebody with formal training in the stuff!
 
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