Bay Island Bonsai Exhibit 2010

[Smoke]

I'm almost sure you are talking about the last picture.

I have no problem with the trunk line as it is. I think it is a marvelous use of tension with the beautiful movements in the trunk. What I find hard to follow is the branch layout.

I think there are too many for one thing and I think that green mass at the upper left adds nothing to the composition. I think removal of a few and a different layout could really benefit this tree. I think it's all there, just needs rearranging.

 

[greerhw]

I'm almost sure you are talking about the last picture.

I have no problem with the trunk line as it is. I think it is a marvelous use of tension with the beautiful movements in the trunk. What I find hard to follow is the branch layout.

I think there are too many for one thing and I think that green mass at the upper left adds nothing to the composition. I think removal of a few and a different layout could really benefit this tree. I think it's all there, just needs rearranging.

Yes I was talking about the last picture, beautiful tree, I'll stick with my first assessment, but you make some good points too. I'm not a big fan of jin low on trunks, I take it off my trees. I hope the owner, if he/she come here, the tree as is would look good on my bench.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[boon]

Yes, I've noticed that the Japanese displays often use stands that seem rather high for a Westerner's taste. The Kokufu albums have lots of similar examples, with high stands.

So, it seems like the height of the stand can vary significantly, there is a lot of freedom in this area.

as i mentioned earlier, display based on where and how the tree grows. is the japanese stand too big and too tall or 'western taste' stand too small and low?

what is ' western taste' in bonsai?

to me, bonsai is universal. Japanese is the main source of all information in bonsai- caring and styling and display. sonce ones master the basic technique, then it is fair to expand to new idea.

this is the reason why there are so many westerner go to Japan to study.

 

[boon]

Dear Boon,
Thank you so much for this explanation. I will endeavor to start reading more on the subject.
If you do return to this post – I noticed that you state that for fun you use a 8’ space and 3 point display but do you always use the Japanese traditional display method or do you stray away from it and if so, do you have some examples you could share.
Cheers
G.

G.
6' (180 cm) space is a standard that we use for the display. There are not many show in the US that will allow this space for the display. the show seems to be too crowded with trees right next to each other. we should leave more space to enjoy the beauty of each display. we use bamboo to divide the display.

the directional flow of the trees should flow toward the center.
One flow to the right the other one should flow to the left. Accent plant is placed close to one of the tree. It should create balance in the display.
Sometimes we do not have enough trees that have different flow. This year show we seems to have more trees that flow from right to left. There are some display that seems odd. I am sorry about that.

at BIB meeting, we do discuss about different trees and how to display them. we bring several stands, secondary tree(s) and accent plants to the meeting. we devoted about 15 minutes at the end of the meeting for display discussion. we takes turn to bring the trees in. this is one way for us to improve our art.

during repotting season, we also bring several pots(not necessary expensive ones). they are similar in sizes, different shapes and colors. we try to put the trees into the new pot and see how different the tree looks in different shape pots and slightly different sizes. it is fun to do and also broadened our horizon on pot selection. New pot also make the tree looks different. It gives a new look to the garden.

Here is example for 3 point on large display. the panel is 6'. these are 8'. Ponderosa pine came from Portland. the owner painted the scroll by himself. it is mt Hood, i believe. 6' space will be too small for these display.

 

[boon]

I have never met you but from all I hear from your students, you're a stand up guy. You certainly have talent, because I've seen your work. I study under some of your sudents and I have your JBP video. A quality video by the way. I was joking about displaying my trees, but when you read words on a computer screen, it's hard to tell what someone means. Al misunderstood my meaning in my OP, and he is right about one thing, I am touchy about the way I approch this hobby, I get tired of people always running down collectors,because they don't do their own styling. I'm 67 years old and the time I have left to develop young trees is limited. I love bonsai just as much as anyone, anywhere, and I am lucky enough to purchase nearly finished trees. I pick the trees I buy and I hire Marco to come once a year and style the new trees I've bought over the winter time, otherwise I am responsible for everything else associated with my trees. Here is an example of a itowgawa in a Dale Cochoy pot I bought this winter for Marco to style this spring. I do post my trees before and after Marco styles them, for people to enjoy and no other reason. Sorry to have caused a ripple in the force on your show thread.

keep it green,
Harry

Thank you Harry,
you do have good collection of bonsasi

 

[boon]

Yes I was talking about the last picture, beautiful tree, I'll stick with my first assessment, but you make some good points too. I'm not a big fan of jin low on trunks, I take it off my trees. I hope the owner, if he/she come here, the tree as is would look good on my bench.

keep it green,
Harry

the tree is still young in training. it was collected 5 years ago. training started 4 years ago. it was fuller. the owner thin it out and wire. then bring it to me afterward. it was not as full as it should be. full bonsai = good health.
all the jin is natural. something that did not show in the picture is. several branches were peeled away from the trunk. it came that way. Nature made it. keeping the jin or not, the decision will be made by the owner.

 

[Yamadori]

Boon,
In the first 6' display image I see that the tall stand for the smaller deciduous tree is on a diagonal rather than squared to the space. That is unusual. Can you please tell us why that angle was chosen?

Barbara

 

[Attila Soos]

as i mentioned earlier, display based on where and how the tree grows. is the japanese stand too big and too tall or 'western taste' stand too small and low?

what is ' western taste' in bonsai?

to me, bonsai is universal.

I was using the term "Western taste" because I've encountered many comments similar to the one expressed on this forum, regarding the height of the stand. The IBC forum had some discussions about this topic, and a number of people felt that the stand in a certain display was too high. I remember Rob Kempinsky showing some Japanese examples and explaining that these stands that looked too high in the eye of the forum participants, were often used in Japanese exhibits.

So, this prompted me to use the term "Westerner taste", since most of the forum participants were from this part of the world (although at IBC there are many Easterners as well).

I agree with you that bonsai is universal. But I am also aware that cultural differences can lead to differences in taste. This is inevitable, and diversity in taste is a good thing, in my opinion.

 

[Bill S]

I'm not a big fan of jin low on trunks, I take it off my trees. keep it green,
Harry

I'll not automatically attribute this to Marco, but at a workshop I remember him saying that jin low on a tree was unnatural as most trees would loose them before it became "mature". Some of my words but the jist of what Marco said, and it makes sense, low dead branches would have to be there a long time without rotting off, to be there on a mature tree. But then you do admit to liking the "Japaneese" influence" on a bonsai.

 

[Attila Soos]

I'll not automatically attribute this to Marco, but at a workshop I remember him saying that jin low on a tree was unnatural as most trees would loose them before it became "mature". Some of my words but the jist of what Marco said, and it makes sense, low dead branches would have to be there a long time without rotting off, to be there on a mature tree. But then you do admit to liking the "Japaneese" influence" on a bonsai.

That is true. But nature always has a way to prove us wrong.
A low mature branch could always die due to breaking off from an accident (wind, snow, falling tree), or succumb to disease. Also, it could die off due to change of circumstances, such as being too shaded by newly grown vegetation (another tree, etc). So the term "unnatural" is highly questionable.

 

[Bill S]

I knew someone would get me with that, general statement. Thanks Attilla

 

[Attila Soos]

I knew someone would get me with that, general statement. Thanks Attilla

That's what we do here. Just lurking and waiting for the opportunity to get someone.

 

[boon]

Boon,
In the first 6' display image I see that the tall stand for the smaller deciduous tree is on a diagonal rather than squared to the space. That is unusual. Can you please tell us why that angle was chosen?

Barbara

good observation. either way is correct you can use the flat side as a front when the tree is smaller. to make the stand apprear larger you can use the corner as the front. this is the case that the tree and the pot is larger.

 

[Yamadori]

to make the stand apprear larger you can use the corner as the front. this is the case that the tree and the pot is larger.

That makes sense.

 

[boon]

I was using the term "Western taste" because I've encountered many comments similar to the one expressed on this forum, regarding the height of the stand. The IBC forum had some discussions about this topic, and a number of people felt that the stand in a certain display was too high. I remember Rob Kempinsky showing some Japanese examples and explaining that these stands that looked too high in the eye of the forum participants, were often used in Japanese exhibits.

So, this prompted me to use the term "Westerner taste", since most of the forum participants were from this part of the world (although at IBC there are many Easterners as well).

I agree with you that bonsai is universal. But I am also aware that cultural differences can lead to differences in taste. This is inevitable, and diversity in taste is a good thing, in my opinion.

I agree on having different taste on art. putting tree on the stand is like putting the picture in the frame. we need space on the frame to show off the picture inside the frame. if the frame is too small. it looks cramp. if it is too big the picture will appear too small.

do you think Monalisa is in the right size frame? I do not judge that. i just enjoy it. and sometimes wonder why they give that painting so much space on the wall? it is a good study when you start to discuss about the art in that level

this kind of understanding depends on where you get the information from. will one change for different - for better or for worse.

the same thing happen here. what is the right size and height for the stand. the hight of the stand will elevate the tree.

you do not see tall pot used for cascade any more in japan. tall stand is used because the tree grow on the cliff. tall pot is difficult to use. gravity will pull water to the bottom. the surface will stay dry for that reason. and when it get root bound, it is very difficult to take the tree out of the pot. i hope the explanation make sense. it is personal taste. i used to grow my cascade in tall pot when i started bonsai. it is because i was told and the reason at that time seems logical. but i grow out of it. i find better logical reason.

i do not force my students to cut a branch that i want to. after my explanation why or why not, if they do not agree, they can keep that branch if they want. there is not thing wrong with that. they are the one who live with the tree. they see it every day. they have to be happy about what they see.
when you have low growing deciduous tree you can use lower stand accent plant is always lower.

when i put up our show, i do it for the club members. sometimes we do not have enough stands to use for the show. we borrow from each others. and we try to find the right size stand for the tree.

it is a way to express our art of displaying bonsai. outsiders are invited to enjoy it. Some may criticize it.

anyway this make bonsai a good art if you can make it better. and you can discuss about it.

 

[greerhw]

I'll not automatically attribute this to Marco, but at a workshop I remember him saying that jin low on a tree was unnatural as most trees would loose them before it became "mature". Some of my words but the jist of what Marco said, and it makes sense, low dead branches would have to be there a long time without rotting off, to be there on a mature tree. But then you do admit to liking the "Japaneese" influence" on a bonsai.

It's funny, all the hours I've spent with Marco, that subject has never come up, maybe because I remove all the low jin before he ever sees the trees, just my personal taste. The trunk on a tree is my favorite feature and I like to see as much of it as possible, I've even removed large lower branches on JBP, to show more of the trunk.

keep it green
Harry

 

[Attila Soos]

...anyway this make bonsai a good art if you can make it better. and you can discuss about it.

Thanks Boon, I appreciate your imput very much.
Interesting information about not using tall pots anymore, I was not aware of it, but now that I think of it, I don't remember seeing tall pots for a long time. Your explanation as to why, makes a lot of sense.

I hope your trip is going well.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Boon, I appreciate your imput very much.
Interesting information about not using tall pots anymore, I was not aware of it, but now that I think of it, I don't remember seeing tall pots for a long time. Your explanation as to why, makes a lot of sense.

I hope your trip is going well.

Tall pots are also difficult to over-winter in cold climates, demanding all sorts of extra measures to make sure the tree is well taken care of.

 

[bwaynef]

Tall pots are also difficult to over-winter in cold climates, demanding all sorts of extra measures to make sure the tree is well taken care of.

Why is that? And what do you have to do w/ them?

 

[Concorde]

I agree on having different taste on art. putting tree on the stand is like putting the picture in the frame. we need space on the frame to show off the picture inside the frame. if the frame is too small. it looks cramp. if it is too big the picture will appear too small.

do you think Monalisa is in the right size frame? I do not judge that. i just enjoy it. and sometimes wonder why they give that painting so much space on the wall? it is a good study when you start to discuss about the art in that level

this kind of understanding depends on where you get the information from. will one change for different - for better or for worse.

the same thing happen here. what is the right size and height for the stand. the hight of the stand will elevate the tree.

you do not see tall pot used for cascade any more in japan. tall stand is used because the tree grow on the cliff. tall pot is difficult to use. gravity will pull water to the bottom. the surface will stay dry for that reason. and when it get root bound, it is very difficult to take the tree out of the pot. i hope the explanation make sense. it is personal taste. i used to grow my cascade in tall pot when i started bonsai. it is because i was told and the reason at that time seems logical. but i grow out of it. i find better logical reason.

i do not force my students to cut a branch that i want to. after my explanation why or why not, if they do not agree, they can keep that branch if they want. there is not thing wrong with that. they are the one who live with the tree. they see it every day. they have to be happy about what they see.
when you have low growing deciduous tree you can use lower stand accent plant is always lower.

when i put up our show, i do it for the club members. sometimes we do not have enough stands to use for the show. we borrow from each others. and we try to find the right size stand for the tree.

it is a way to express our art of displaying bonsai. outsiders are invited to enjoy it. Some may criticize it.

anyway this make bonsai a good art if you can make it better. and you can discuss about it.

Well said Boon.