JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Looks like Bayer is discontinuing the granular formula of the 12 month systemic insecticide. Just thought some people would want to know.... You can still find it on Amazon.
Bayer granules
- Thread starter JudyB
- Start date
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Wonder if that is regional. Malathion for example cannot be bought in some states as well as other items like mothballs.
Grimmy
Grimmy
Stan Kengai
Omono
A host of recent scientific studies have shown that Imidaclorprid (the active ingredient in Bayer advanced) is likely the cause of honey bee colony collapse disorder. I don't know if it's been mandated/regulated to come off the market or anything like that, just thought I'd share what I know.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Also...I've seen a bunch of reports that imidaclopromid has been found in many wells on Long Island, and environmental groups are calling for it to be banned there. I wouldn't be surprised if the stuff became very difficult or impossible to get before long.
Think it's been banned in much of Europe?
Chris
Think it's been banned in much of Europe?
Chris
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
They are still manufacturing the liquid version, but the item at amazon when you look at it, says discontinued by manufacturer. Maybe liquid is a different chem?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Bayer has a number of products and I'm not sure if all of them contain imidacloprid (corrected spelling). It could be similar to the lime sulfur scare - when one of the major manufacturers (bonide) decided to stop producing the small containers sold to homeowners while still producing larger sizes for farm/agricultural use. The smaller containers stopped showing up at garden centers leading to concerns that lime sulfur was banned when it wasn't.
The bayer stuff is different, as it has been implicated in colony collapse disorder and has been found in wells. I'd say there's a good chance it becomes restricted at some point. Certified pesticide applicators will probably be able to get it but you wouldn't be able to find it at the local nursery, Lowes, etc.
I've got some and restrict its use to potted trees and a couple of pre-bonsai pines in the ground. I don't know if it's the sole cause of the colony collapse disorder or even a major contributor, but I'm assuming it plays some role.
Chris
The bayer stuff is different, as it has been implicated in colony collapse disorder and has been found in wells. I'd say there's a good chance it becomes restricted at some point. Certified pesticide applicators will probably be able to get it but you wouldn't be able to find it at the local nursery, Lowes, etc.
I've got some and restrict its use to potted trees and a couple of pre-bonsai pines in the ground. I don't know if it's the sole cause of the colony collapse disorder or even a major contributor, but I'm assuming it plays some role.
Chris
edprocoat
Masterpiece
I always wonder why they restrict or remove from the market pesticides such as these for home use way before its ever removed or restricted for commercial use. I sincerely doubt that the average gardeners use would be anywhere near as devastating as commercial applications to bee colonies or incursion into wells for that matter. Its like the powers that be, whether the are the marketers of the product or those that benefit from its distribution decide they will limit it in home use so it will appease some while allowing hundreds of gallons to be used commercially with little or no regulations so the marketer can reap the profits, pay for the studies and environmental impact fees etc. The rich get richer while the little guy loses his garden.
ed
ed
DougB
Chumono
Perhaps the answer to your "wondering" is that in order to obtain and retain a pesticide license one must attend classes and pass a written exam. This allows specific information as to the choice of a pesticide and as importantly its application to be provided to the licensees. And if one does not comply then the license is removed and perhaps a livelihood as well. The average person off the street does not read research/university research/information and indeed seldom reads all/some of the labeling information. That is a huge contrast between licensed applicators and those without a license.
Just my 1.5 cents worth.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
bonsaibp
Omono
A couple of reasons
Homeowners don't have an organized lobby the chemical companies do. The co's make way more $ on pro and ag applications.
A good number of homeowners are idiots when it comes to chemicals- if the label says 1 tbs then 3 will work better is a very common syndrome. But mostly the first two reasons.
nathanbs
Omono
reminds me of a "I Love Lucy" episode where she's cooking a turkey and she's in a hurry so she doubles the temperature to cook it in half the time
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Si Nguyen
Omono
Bees are still dying around my area. But other insects are mostly gone too. Last 3-4 years we don't even close our screen doors in the day anymore. No bugs! And windshields are staying cleaner on long road trips too. Noticed that? I do believe it is the Bayer systemics that is doing such a good job at wiping out the insects. I have never used the stuff. Everybody should stop using it!
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I don't believe that the chemicals themselves are the problem. It is in my opinion the inability of consumers to use them with caution. I use items that are considered "dangerous" and are not legal in some places. I am a little different in my usage though as I am from a Scientific background and my Wife is an Environmental Engineer. I always start out with 1/5th of the solution and usually do not have to use more and never as often as they say to treat. I also do not use any systematics directly on plants but on surrounding surfaces so we have no shortage of bees. We also have a lot of praying Mantis, Assassin Bugs, and more that keep the bad stuff away. We do not however have ants and therefore no need to treat for many other pests.
Grimmy
Grimmy
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
- Messages
- 13,623
- Reaction score
- 33,175
- USDA Zone
- 6a
Are you saying you start out using only 20% of the recommended dosage strength? If so, that sounds like a great way to foster the development of resistance to the chemicals in the targeted pest...not a good idea in my opinion. If you're thinking about using a a particular chemical product, understand what it is you're trying to treat, understand how the chemical works, and follow the label directions word for word.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
One of the main things I treat for is ants. I use 1/5th or 20% of the solution Malathion suggests and it wipes out a nest(colony) in 24 hours or less. Are there more nests throughout the year? Answer is yes but Not in the same places. If a nest is dead it is no longer able to develop a resistance... I understand your logic but not in many circumstances as in ants it just does not apply.
Grimmy
Last edited:
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
- Messages
- 13,623
- Reaction score
- 33,175
- USDA Zone
- 6a
I'm sorry but in my mind your implied use of caution is just as dangerous as those that use too much chemical. You're applying this chemical over a given area to treat ants but many more organisms then ants will pass through the treated area and be exposed. As to the effectiveness of your custom malathion protocol as an ant treatment, I can only take your word for it, but I feel very comfortable saying that the use of sub therapeutic levels of everything from pesticides to antibiotics are a very real contribution to the development of resistance in the targeted organism and in other untargeted organisms, as well, and that the chemical will ultimately be inneffective, leading to the need for more effective and potentially more toxic remedies. Unless you are a biochemical engineer who has studied the complexities of pesticides, their effects on the environment and the development of resistance in difference biological populations, I feel that you are making assumptions about the minimal(?)impact of your spraying regimen that are unfounded and probably unrealistic.
Just found this...check out bullet point number four..."malpractice of underdosing"
http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/r/_...m/PDFs/FLYCAM%20FACT%20SHEET%20NUMBER%206.pdf
Last edited:
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
For my part, I believe it's better to use the recommended dosages, but only when absolutely necessary. I also have no problems keeping bees and other beneficials around my property, as I do everything but the bonsai completely organically. The only thing I use on the bonsai (aside from insecticidal soap) is this systemic, and only on the trees that are bug prone. As well as fungicide for those trees that need that. I feel like my footprint is pretty small chemical wise. I do not use this systemic on any flowering trees either.
I think that regulation and even banning is increasingly necessary because too many people are unwise users of chemicals.
But I also think that fertilization is an enormous problem and I don't see too much regulation there. I would imagine that is because of the huge amount that goes into food production and the crop science that the large corporations are making big $$ from.
I think that regulation and even banning is increasingly necessary because too many people are unwise users of chemicals.
But I also think that fertilization is an enormous problem and I don't see too much regulation there. I would imagine that is because of the huge amount that goes into food production and the crop science that the large corporations are making big $$ from.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
This is very unfortunate. I don't know exactly where you live, but there could be other factors at play - particularly changes in land use, habitat destruction, etc. We live in a very agricultural area - lots of orchards (apples, peaches, blueberries), vegetable farms (cabbage, squash, tomatoes), grain production (corn, soybeans, various wheats) - and they don't skimp on chemical applications. We live across from a couple hundred acres where crop dusting occurs several times a year. Yet, we have an abundance of insects of all kinds, including many types of native pollinators (bees, wasps, moths).
We are fortunate to still have quite a bit of "raw" land around (including 6 acres in our back field), which does provide habitat for these insects. Unfortunately the trend is for increasing development so I suspect the numbers of beneficial insects will gradually decline. Another potential problem is that municipalities around here are starting to treat large numbers of trees to protect them from ash borers. This involves systemic chemicals (possibly imidacloprid) which could have wide ranging effects. We shall see, I suppose.
Chris
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I am talking about 2 to maybe 4 ant colonies that show up yearly mainly in driveway and patio seams, I simply use a small 1 quart hand sprayer and mist the ants when they are most active at the entrance of their colony 2 maybe 3 times. They carry it "downstairs" and it is done. Do you honestly "think"(and you sound fairly smart) that I am in someway greatly impacting the environment? This process may occur here up to 3 times a year! DAMN me! I am wrecking the planet!
Be realistic, I am a far more concerned and careful person when it comes to harming the eco system. As JudyB said it is a huge concern for everyone when it comes to the use of fertilizers and water contamination. I also understand that "most" people in agricultural situations use as little insecticide as possible to reduce overall costs. I also understand the DEC uses Malathion(sprayed from aircraft at night) to control Deer Ticks and it is totally acceptable to everyone... Get out of my none invasive back and enjoy your planet a little more because there are serious stewards of our planet and resources as myself... Thank you!Grimmy
Similar threads
