[BC's, & all species!!] How to approach chop-wound closure, problem is that I'm developing **inverse-taper** on some chop-wounds :/

SU2

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TL;DR--- When trying to make a new apex-upon a stump/trunk, and simultaneously using the base of that new apex to "close the chop-wound", how do you gauge how far to let those top primaries/leaders go growing before you reign them in? I'd left the top-most primary('leader') to just grow tall like several feet long on most of my BC's, also allowed side-primaries to grow where their collars were helping close the chop-woundings, anyway I realized to my dismay that, in approaching it how I had, that I was[possibly] setting myself up for inverse-taper down the road :( I dunno, maybe this inverse-taper (what's being caused in the photos below) is minimal-enough that, so long as I'm reeling it in now, it's fine IE during the time I'm developing&refining the apex maybe that'll be enough time to know the trunk will regain taper / smooth-out in the chop-area....that is my hope but am here seeking guidance so I don't have to learn the hard way and find myself having to re-create & re-close a new chop-wound because I'd over-grown the 1st ones! Am now thinking "Just hard-prune them back and begin treating them more as in-refinement' branching, not "growing for girth" anymore..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So.....
BC-specific info is great although I suspect the principles will be similar/same on most bonsai that're in "this situation", specifically I mean a bonsai you're creating by:
- collecting a large yamadori who requires a trunk-chop upon collection, that you're:
- budding&growing a large "leader" primary branch right by / at the chop-wound site, and are:
- relying upon that leader's branch-collar to "roll-over"/callous-over the chop-wound, simultaneously achieving two goals (closure of the wound, and creation of the base of the new canopy/apex that's to sit-atop that chop-wound)

BC's are overly-aggressive when it comes to their wound-closure IME, leaving far bigger scar-tissue for any actions than comparable actions on other species (and BC's tops are the bane of my work in the garden right now!) so figure it's the best example-species here but am also dealing w/ this on Maples and wanna know what's "the guideline"!

Do people have any "rule of thumb" for The Time to Finally Touch/Cut/Intervene on that Leader-Primary? Do you go by % of chop-wound that's closed-off? Or by the relative girth of the leader, relative to the trunk it's growing from?

Example 1: BC, maybe 1.5yr old, top leader-primary's girth was getting to the point that I was afraid of inverse-taper so, after this pic, I went and did pretty hard-prunings of these branches (I should note that, in many of these situations, I approach it by "2-stepping" insofar as I do a first "hard prune" to the branches and, days later once I see the back-budding, do a second round of pruning so I can ensure I've pruned-back to the lowest pair of active nodes/backbuds) This guy has a side-branch also assisting w/ wound-closure, in fact I suspect that if I carved it that the wounding would be near-closed but I don't see any benefit to carving its top just yet:
proud BC's top leader-primary.jpg
the base/collar of this leader-primary is easily 80% of the trunk-girth where it originates, and there's that opposing primary who's also "closing the wound" although this ^ guy is a good (IMO) example of actually leaving "extra top-trunk" on (I suspect it provides "insulation"/comfort for the top of the wounded trunk while the new primaries are growing & forming an enclosed-trunk (through the years, of course!)
I pruned ^ this guy back really hard, only on those top shoots, basically seeing it as "I don't want much-more girth on that leader, so I'm going to prune-back to its lowest pair of viable buds and "re-start" my top-growth", kinda a "round 1 refinement" of this guy's leader....but I fear I went too-far on a pair of older BC's...


"BC1" and "BC2" are my real worries, I noticed the problem & quickly got on-top-of some work to address it, gonna start w/ "BC1":
BC1 got a hard-prune of all top-of-trunk primaries, leaving him like this:
BC1 after hard-pruning & removing some top primaries.jpg
BC1's re-growth on base of leader branches days-after their hard-prune.jpg
but that's ^ not enough IMO as I really wanna slow growth at this collar (or, rather, "keep its growth in-line w/ rest of tree"!!), so did my usual '2-step pruning' approach and, after it'd lived like ^ that for some days and back-budded to my liking, I pruned (and just removed nodes/bark to achieve same effect) all the extra buds, bringing most of them back to just 1 or 2 buds:
3 - bc1 after 2nd, finer pruning of leaders' shoots, other side's view.jpg (here's two more pics/angles of BC1 after getting that 2nd prune, you can see I did 'skin' some of those branch-bases but the intervention was done thinking "OK these are getting too-fat and, if un-checked, will create major inverse-taper by the time the wound closes; But, by hard-pruning back to these lowest, bottom-most pairs[or single!] of new buds, I'll thwart more runaway growth at the chop-wounds **and** simultaneously have begun 'creating my apex' ", would love to hear people's thoughts/opinions on how I approached this one!!!


AAAAAAaaaaand last but certainly not least, 'BC2'.....this guy is 4' tall(the trunk/chop-wound's height) and 2.75yrs in-container, I'd been letting the top-primaries just "run wild" while trying to close that wound & develop taper-into-the-apex on my BC-stick, had even allowed a pair of side-primaries to grow-from the sides of the chop-wound, I removed those entirely before these pics but their effects of having fattened the sides of the wound should be apparent:
BC2's chop wound showing some real inverse-taper potential.jpg[gotta love how the collar/callousing "split" the latex caulking I'd put in there, spreading that white ring half an inch outward ;P ]
This guy's got even-worse leader-to-trunk size ratios, here's side-views:
BC2 a side view of top primaries after repot-with-defoliation.jpg
BC2 another side view of top primaries, post-repot but prior to hard-prunes.jpg[ah, there's one of the side-primary's scars, still not calloused-over, I'd removed the side-primaries the second I realized the taper-problem, and got right on making BC-interventions a priority!]

So with that ^ guy, the amount of "above-chopwound growth&girth" is much higher, relatively, than on the other two I've shown. I hard-pruned all primaries at/above the wound, doing my 2-step process which I'm only on step-1 of right now (IE I've brought all of those top primaries back hard, expecting about 2-3X as many buds as I'll actually want, but I keep an eye on it and, as they develop, I rub-off or cut-off the higher buds so that, on each branch, I'm able to have the usual "split to 2" w/o risking die-back/losing any particular branch :) )


What do you guys think of my approaching of chop-wound-healing // apex-creation? Obviously this is "step 1" in apex-creation, but a necessary step nonetheless, so am really in-the-dark here & hoping for advice, I cannot tell if I'm doing it close-to right OR, if I am erring, I'm not even sure if I'm intervening too-early or too-late....I know many have a knee-jerk reaction of "just let it grow" but clearly if I let the top go un-touched on that last one (BC2) then it'd certainly have a 'flare' at its chop-wound (or, at best, just be ram-rod straight / lack any taper) For context, I chose my chop-wounds' heights on these trunks with relatively-squat canopies in-mind, kind of want short/dense/tight branching in their crowns and, w/ BCs' apical-dominance, I suspect that once you've gotten "the bones" / "the structure" of those top/leader primaries to somewhere around 75%+ of their final girth, that it's best to stop growing-out and start working them for ramification (while still allowing all the lower, side primaries to elongate as their girth still needs a lot of growing!!)

Thanks a ton for any&all insight on wound-closure // avoiding inverse taper at the closure-point(s) // apex origination, I know "the basic concept/gist of it" but I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot by closing a chop-wound in just 3yrs only to realize I'd done so by creating inverse-taper from leaving my sacrifice-branches on for too-long, or letting the leader-primary run too-tall...I'd had this idea in-mind that ~80% of "final intended girth" is a good time to intervene & stop the primary/leader from further 'real' growth (reverting to a clip&grow, refinement-type approach, working on orientation & aesthetics not on growth/girth), would love people's thoughts I mean hell I've even thought "Maybe you could get-away with a little inverse-taper at that spot on the trunk IF that spot is 'the top' of the trunk and all the primaries go outwards" (IE the main stem/trunk splits to several sub-trunks at the same spot, this happens in nature often enough and some reverse-taper solely at that spot is OK when styled/done that way, IMO), but for BC's like this where that wound location is just intended to be "part of the final trunk", well, I'm just not sure how thick I should be getting the primaries, and/or how healed I should get the wound, before 'backing off' of unfettered primary-growth!
 

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Zach Smith

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It looks like your priority following trunk chops has been wound closure, leading to excess apical growth that was not managed properly. So you've done great at closing up those wounds in a hurry, but now you have too much tree above the wounds. Guaranteed reverse taper for species with strong apical dominance. In my experience, you never need to worry about a BC trunk chop healing - in time. You always focus on a smooth tapering transition, and the callusing does the rest at its own pace. With BC, you simply can't afford to not manage the growth above the trunk chop if you want to avoid a reverse taper.

FWIW.
 

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This one had a three-inch chop starting in 2015 and angled in 2016. Last photo this July after defoliating and before wiring. Close-ups of the tapering transition and the callusing. I've taken it nice and slow, focusing on the transition and letting the wound heal itself in its own time.
Cypress3-24-20-4.JPGCypress3-24-20-5.JPGCypress7-5-20-2.JPG
 

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WOW that is both as-informative (and brilliantly succinct :D ) as I could've hoped for, but seemingly as bad an answer for the fate of my lil BC's here :(

What would you advise for my approach at this point? I've basically "neutered" all the above-chop-wound growth, leaving just a handful of growing-tips....maybe it's best to choose a new primary as my top leader? I could choose one right-beneath the chop-wound, start developing that (and continually neutering everything above it, eventually leaving me w/ a slightly shorter/lower apex but no inverse taper?)
 

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Just re-chop right below the trouble point and start over. You know how fast these trees grow. On my tree above, I've been through several chops of the leader to keep it in check and build taper while letting it thicken at the base and help the callusing. There's a lot going on all at once, but the key is to manage the process to get both wound closure and complete the tapering trunk line and crown at about the same time. Focus exclusively on one aspect and it's likely the tree will get away from you on the other.
 
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Just re-chop right below the trouble point and start over. You know how fast these trees grow. On my tree above, I've been through several chops of the leader to keep it in check and build taper while letting it thicken at the base and help the callusing. There's a lot going on all at once, but the key is to manage the process to get both wound closure and complete the tapering trunk line and crown at about the same time. Focus exclusively on one aspect and it's likely the tree will get away from you on the other.
I'll say that's a surprising answer as I'm still looking at my sketches/plans here, unable to fault that I can achieve the end-goal w/o any 'flow'/taper issues to speak of, I never did mention that it's intended to be a flattop with its canopy starting the ~height of the chop-wound, I'd done a 2nd session of xacto'ing-back tissue on the branch-collars of their (now-culled) leaders, gently working-towards keeping a mere 1-or-2 (likely 2, only have the proper bud placement on 1 of the 2 bc's for it so far though I don't expect any issue getting that bud) leaders that would:
- be oriented near-horizontally as they "leave the trunking"(they're leaving the tip-top, obviously not at same-height so it's (1) for-sure leader/primary being grown from the lower part of the 'initial leader branch''s branch-collar right-above/on-top-of that wounding/callousing, and
- they'll not be allowed to run, the 1 or 2 branches that'll be the horizontal starts to the 1-or-2 flattop pads up top will effectively be 'held back' by pinching, this is a kind of 'move over/into' a refinement move aka the creation of a the 1 or 2 tops which will be the only branches on the final piece/styling here, except for possibly 1--->3 side branches(or lower-than-wound primaries) as those are only there sacrificially / to grow the trunk & create bulging on the trunk-body when they're culled,
,this has always been the style-plan for these two BC's but funnily enough when I'd finished 'slicing-back tissue' on the lil stumps of their now-culled leaders (directly-atop the wounding callous), had already done crude sketching for myself (b4 carving/for notes) but after I was done I read your post here and for this reply I wanted to draw-out what I mean, I grabbed my real sketches notebook that evening and found old pencil drawings of these bc's, including a final-style of the taller one but their plans are near-identical anyway just different sized trunks, anyway it seems I was almost (wanting? expecting?) inverse taper at the wound, as-if it were a positive thing to kinda 'envelope' that wound as-much-as-possible before "round 2" where I'm no longer letting any at-or-above wound-height branches run like I had before, where I begin getting-rid-of those lower side primaries (going to work them off the tree over time based on where I want/need their wounds, had initially loved the idea of that super smooth bc trunking but once you've got side branches - or their wounds - it seems that's a near-impossible feat to get to!) But whether intentional or not it seemed I was thinking same basic thing then as I am now which is "close most-of that wound with heavy growth, then revert to a middle-mode between "let it run" and refinement-clipping" although with how aggressive bc's are I may need to be aggressive to the top just to keep it in-check, something I expect/hope slows-down once they're in smaller/root-bound bonsai containers :p
My sketches if you wanna see what I mean, pencil is at least ~1yr old and all the new stuff was done with pen:
old "final design" idea for the tall one, would need scaling-back as I made it too-tall (the blue-pen markings on pencil-pages are recent/current markings for this thread/updating my game-plan)
19700101_190204.jpg
old 'progression theory' for wound-closure/apex-creation:
19700101_190317.jpg
newer 'progression plans' for them, honestly both are very similar in their circumstances & their goals so as long as I can get the taller guy to give a 2nd backbud in that callous region (have a great low-on-branchcollar bud on him that I've xacto'd back to already), it will have crude/rough lines for a while but I still see it being able to more-than work out any of the current inverse taper after it's got a couple years' more trunk-growth *and* that top's next stage is the creation of its 1-or-2 horizontally-oriented, never-let-run new leaders (which should be in 'flattop pad' form in ~2yr I suspect, not well-refined but having the shape)
19700101_190337.jpg

^I put the wound-circle in final pic for size/height context but that's the rough idea for each of them, using horizontally-oriented flattop branches(or branch) as-leader after having mostly-closed the wound, so basically now - having hit the point of having hard-pruned the leaders (one was repotted, other is in a rootmaker in standing water), they're transitioned to tops that don't run/begin ramifying, next repot they're moved-down to smaller size/transition-sized containers, and I aim to be starting 'real refinement' of the flattop padding at the same time as the side branch I've kept, with the other side branches' absence(but their 1-->2yrs more growth to the trunk, and resultant wounds/nubs), especially combined with the nature of such squat BC's to be so flared at-ground relative to height, am really not picturing the inverse to last long in fact would almost be surprised to see any within a year after this culling....but am very-strongly questioning if I'll be able to get away with 2 flattops originating in such a short vertical zone, am now thinking of doing just 1 growing-tip at-or-above the wounding and to have the next-highest primary developed into the lower/2nd flattop pad (for a squatter final design, should be easy to kick growth in any branch in that area by removing nearby mid-trunk branches at that time & simultaneously be culling the higher-up growth since bc's are so apical they just push push push and go lower when pushed-down it seems, already wondering how crazy it may get rubbing-off unwanted buds while its still got such a large rootmass :p )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Was also really curious about your thoughts on the whole "growing my apex/top leader(s) below the chop-height" way of approaching this? The 1st pic on this page shows a BC whose top leader is growing-under a 'top/cover/nub' of deadwood, not 'up&over' it, and this pair of older Red Maples are basically being done the same way:
19700110_145843.jpg 19700110_151528.jpg although for the 1st one in the red tub I don't have the same "multiple primaries splitting-off at the same height/from the chop-area" thing going on, I cut-back the 2nd maple's leader(s) but the other one am OK w/ leaving a bit longer(I think :p ) but would love to hear your thoughts, I mean I've never done it this way but it almost seems like, at least in pic #2 here of 2nd maple, that those leaders'/primaries' collars are going to meet/fuse at a height below the trunk-chop and will eventually 'squeeze out' the deadwood stump atop them, but have never actually done that / gotten that far on a tree in fact have only truly closed-off 1 trunk chop in whole garden so far!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks again for those pics, am gg to bonsaisouth and look for more as the pics (but not your 2nd post's recommendation :p ) had me comforted, seeing you've got that much chopwound left yet are in more of a 'transitional' phase than a development/let-it-run phase (although, as you say, you like to do all things simultaneously-- am not sure you actually do large-container/let-it-run growth as part of your protocols in many cases? Thanks again off to bonsaisouth am so grateful you posted had, embarrassed to say, forgotten your name and I knew you/your site&your works but could not put a name.....am gonna email your site-name to myself as I remember there's enough progression stuff there that it's a good always-around resource for bc development!!)
 

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Okay, the idea of cutting off all that top-growth as the original plan does change things. I don't really understand the point or the process, but go for it and post the result. I usually build a flat-top in about a year to a year and a half by chopping where the apex starts, then carefully directing and controlling the growth that emerges from the chop point. I can't figure out why you'd want to grow the tree above your original chop while trying to create branches below that are going to become your leaders, then chop off everything above the ultimate apex. I think that's what I understand from your post, but apologies if I'm wrong.
 
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Okay, the idea of cutting off all that top-growth as the original plan does change things. I don't really understand the point or the process, but go for it and post the result. I usually build a flat-top in about a year to a year and a half by chopping where the apex starts, then carefully directing and controlling the growth that emerges from the chop point. I can't figure out why you'd want to grow the tree above your original chop while trying to create branches below that are going to become your leaders, then chop off everything above the ultimate apex. I think that's what I understand from your post, but apologies if I'm wrong.
lol @ apologies, Mr Smith for all I've learned from you passively, to say nothing of direct help like this, just...no not necessary and besides yes I wasn't that bad because you actually did get it, although on some finer points you "understood the words but not their meaning" so to speak.. I saw a video earlier that had a good analogous BC leader-apex-flattop branch which made me think to come back & add it (& was hoping you'd replied, so great seeing you had :D)**, will add in a sec but think that I'm missing you insofar as some terminology goes and, when discussing aesthetics & horticultural timelines via written word, then vocabulary precision becomes important so to be clear here's how I'm using(and understand to becorrect definitions) of these words:
- apex: syn.='crown', this is the top-most part of a tree. While size&shape varies, it is generally a very small % of total trunking (but not necessarily)
- leader: a primary branch, different from the other primaries in that it's a "top-most" and is generally "run", this guy is usually vertical (even if you're wiring most/all other branches horizontally) and is almost inherently sacrificial(or *part* sacrificial) since he's grown and then cut-back harder than any other primaries....leaders are primaries, but specialized primaries for specific reasons like the concurrent wound-closure & canopy-creation so often needed.....canopy-creation only works here if building canopies from the wound is problematic, I see that we'd diverged on that & suspect differentiating leader-from-primary would've helped me be clearer!)
- primary: any of the bazillions of backbuds thrown from the trunk's bark that you've allowed to survive (on my BC's, I've got several on each of them, but they're sacrificial I intend to begin removing them as-useful to build my trunk best, using their scars and the growth they give before-culling, to 'adjust' trunk angling/bulging/etc to make it look better...I'm picturing a final design where 1 or 2, maybe 3 on the 4'-trunk specimen, of these 'side'(lower-than-wound) primaries are kept for the final picture, and this is where I should put that picture because it shows a rough idea of my thinking here:
a12.png
While the scale's different, this is still almost analogous (except it's 1 top, I kinda wanted 2, am now thinking 2 flattops for the 4' and 1 flattop for the smaller one) to how I'd envisioned/am planning-out mine, when asking for help - which you so graciously provided - I had to give info w/o being able to get into everything Re my plans for it and where I'm at "stage wise" right now because this, the hard-pruning of long-run leaders, is a 'stage'/threshold for me I'll be pivoting growth and next containers will be smaller (and/or rootmaker, one's done that way already) and at that point if I'm being honest my biggest fear, which I'm hoping you could shed-light on for me, would be: Is there any way to 'direct' bc growth, when you're fighting its apical nature? IE in-refinement of a bc that's down to 2 flattop pads and nothing more, it's spent 2yrs in a bonsai-pot and, in spring in FL, was just transplanted to a large, rich grow-box to rejuvenate.....I'd expect it'd be a daily job to go out & rub-off unwanted growth, I mean when I prune almost anything on mine they start budding like nuts on that branch(especially its collar) and frequently the trunk as well, varies tree to tree but even as I pivot into this 'middle stage'/pre-refinement-stage I'm wondering how it's best-maintained, for instance w/ its growth-rate I'm almost tempted to say "I'll allow the 1-or-2 budded new-leaders to grow, wired hard-horizontal, and once it's put out its 2nd secondary-branch I'll cut-back to those 2, then again - repeat like 3--10x - at which point I'll have swapped my pruning to careful 'prune&grow' 2-to-2 cuts and moved to a cruder 'Pall-style 'Hedge-Trimming' method' just to keep-up w/ how I'm picturing a BC will get when it can't run a leader/top-primary!


[[[ **Yeah dude I don't watch sports or do things like that, my Fri night tonight is free/mine and I'm stoked I get to go repot an important bougie(into a box I just burnished, should be real cool :D ), guys like you are like celebrity status to many of us newer artists so it's almost surreal getting the help at all, again thanks a ton I have gone onto your site far more times than I could count, referencing it for my own ends, am hoping to get more of my stuff posted very soon but have nothing but the highest respect, & personal gratefulness/thanks for your individual help, this is some of the best the net has to offer so far as my concerns go :) ]]]
 

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To be clear, I meant "*His* cypress[pond, I know] is setup for a too-tall-for-me height, which just so happens to be the height I'd initially drawn-out for mine off-the-bat and now intend to change", for instance his is about 50% of the tree above-chop, I don't like that / want squatter, I know that's ^ a bit more true/Naturalistic (honestly sometimes I worry if my design will be too-squat but reassure myself 'there is no such thing' ;P )
BTW I know I've said as much before but, hey, if you ever get time on your hands and wanna upload more progress albums ;D :p Heh I know what a PITB it can be but, g'damn, your stuff is just golden man I wish I were in your area to go swamping with you(or for you, unsure how close you physically get on your swampings now!), actually I'll be there next week cutting trees but I'm going in a company truck / will just be oily&cutting/climbing every waking moment for 7d straight so even if it were a good time-of-year....I took-in a lot of your prior tips on swamping, only took 1 tree(maple) this last season and was nearly 3hrs cumulative for that 1, was just bad-luck I guess!
 

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You can direct the growth of a Bald cypress more or less at any stage of development and with any development plan you have. You just have to learn the growth habit and practice working with it. Here's a progression of a tree I developed into a nice flat-top in a year. I definitely fought the tree's natural tendencies, but you have to regardless. Can't remember how many times I rubbed 20-30 buds off the trunk that tried to interfere. Anyway, it's important not to over-complicate things. If you have a good basic trunk and root base you can develop your structure very quickly. It does take a while to get maturity in the growth, but that comes on its own as you continue to prune and pinch (and fight) your tree.
Cypress6-8-19-2.JPGCypress6-8-19-3.JPGCypress7-4-19-4.JPGCypress8-13-19-1.JPGCypress2-28-20-1.JPGCypress3-7-20-1.JPGCypress4-5-20-1.JPGCypress6-23-20-5.JPGCypress7-20-20-1.JPG
The style of this tree is obviously not the same as the one in your model, but the principles remain the same. It looks like that tree was built on a nice stump from about halfway up, and to be sure it probably took upwards of 10 years. But it was no doubt grow and chop all the way up, a straightforward technique. You just have to be prepared for the fight ;)

Good luck!
 

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