Beginner questions - can I learn on these trees?

[Sunwyrm]

Trying to dip into bonsai and I'd like some feedback on what I have and how it could be worked with (if at all). I'm doing a bunch of researching as well, but would love some opinions since I don't have a good knowledge yet of what's healthy or good material.

I have a ton of mimosa, maple and mulberry saplings. Especially one mulberry I'd love to start working with that's gotten pretty big around. I read that I can just chop them and stick them back in the ground to root. Perhaps I could do that a few times with this trunk?

Next is what I think is a black pine. I could be wrong, I bought it last year from my nursery's sale section. The needles are very soft to the touch, frankly I bought it because it was nice to pet.

Then a shore juniper that looks like a shaggy mess to me, not sure what's under here.

Then another one of my weed trees, a maple. I pulled this one from out of my patio stones and potted it last year because I love the shape so much. I'd like to move it to a much larger pot, but is there anything else I should do to it to keep/enhance it's shape? Anything I should be doing to other tiny trees that are still in the ground to try and turn them into unique little snowflakes?

Lastly, this sad azalea that really needs moving. It's behind another azalea and a big cedar. It was pretty tall, but it looks like most of it's height has died back. Hoping I can do something to rescue it, and maybe turn it into something pretty.

I'll probably go picking around the woods at my mom's house soon to see what other local species are available to play around with.

 

[sorce]

I would whack the mil erry down to close to the base....looks like a good flare..

You could root the part you cut off...
But if throw it out, save the base.

The "black pine" is it?
That's badass, there is a dope trunk line in that....go slow...

Go fast on the maple, kill it!

The rest.....?

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

IMHO, it is all good.

• The azalea can be dug now through early Sep. Cut a ring around it with a spade, then slide the spade under and lift it out. Azalas form a pad of fine roots - keep this intact, but wash off the dirt and pot it into a good bonsai medium (Turface MVP or NAPA 8822 diatomaceous earth, will do just fine as will pumice/scoria/lava that is about 1/8th inch). Also trim off dead stems, but keep all the green growth you can.
• The mulberry in the pix could be air layered instead of chopped even though it is getting to be a bit late in the season. Since you have a ton of them, you might want to try air layering one of each, chopping one of each now and then next spring do it again on another two of each species.
• The maple in your pic appears to be a 'red maple' (acer rubrum) which is challenging stuff for bonsai. It is very hard to reduce the leaf size and the length of the internodes. Nevertheless, you can learn with it as your 'victim'.
  • If you've got more like this I would try wrapping some Al wire around the spindly stem and then bending it radically (any twisty-bendy shape that amuses you). Maples can be quite pliant and bendable when they are young, but they quickly become stiff/brittle.
  • One way to make a fat trunk on a small acer palmatum (Japanese maple) is to twist it into tight loops (the bottom of the stem may be too brittle to do this, but it should still be soft and pliable enough near the top). Then, next spring, the wire is removed and the stem will stay in this shape. As it thickens over subsequent seasons, it will fuse to itself to form a fat knot that now has some close-packed internodes. Once this is done after a few season's of growth, it get layered off , making the girdle in the knot so that it becomes a fat little trunk of make a small tree you continue having years of fun with.
• The pine definitely isn't a black pine. P. thunbergii needles are fairly stiff, have sharp points and are in sets of two. I cannot tell for sure, but your pine looks to have 5 needles per sheath (little bundle of needles). This plus the softness means of the needles means it is a white pine, maybe a Japanese white pine (pinus parviflora). There are other white pines, but their needles are longer. At any rate it does't look very healthy. Keep it in full sun, give it a little fertilizer and keep the soil on the dry side (i.e., dig your finger down into it and don't water if damp soil sticks to your finger).
• You also have a juniper. Read the BNut Resource (up there are the menu bar) on juniper foliage. Give it a try in the next few days and you can see how the foliage responds before this season is done.
• With a mulberry branch, you see what happens if you cut off, say, one-third of the branch length - you should see a new shoot emerge from the leaf axil (where the leaf joins the branch) where there is a bud hiding. You could also try carefully cutting off all the leafs (defoliating) another branch - do you get shoots everywhere there was a leaf or just certain ones, or do you just get more leaves? On another branch, keep a leaf or two at the very end/tip, but otherwise defoliate that branch - do you get new leaves, or shoots?
• Try all this mulberry stuff with three mimosa branches.

Take before/after pix of your work, then again near the end of the season (say late Sep) - there will be a quiz .

 

[ConorDash]

IMHO, it is all good.

• The azalea can be dug now through early Sep. Cut a ring around it with a spade, then slide the spade under and lift it out. Azalas form a pad of fine roots - keep this intact, but wash off the dirt and pot it into a good bonsai medium (Turface MVP or NAPA 8822 diatomaceous earth, will do just fine as will pumice/scoria/lava that is about 1/8th inch). Also trim off dead stems, but keep all the green growth you can.
• The mulberry in the pix could be air layered instead of chopped even though it is getting to be a bit late in the season. Since you have a ton of them, you might want to try air layering one of each, chopping one of each now and then next spring do it again on another two of each species.
• The maple in your pic appears to be a 'red maple' (acer rubrum) which is challenging stuff for bonsai. It is very hard to reduce the leaf size and the length of the internodes. Nevertheless, you can learn with it as your 'victim'.
  • If you've got more like this I would try wrapping some Al wire around the spindly stem and then bending it radically (any twisty-bendy shape that amuses you). Maples can be quite pliant and bendable when they are young, but they quickly become stiff/brittle.
  • One way to make a fat trunk on a small acer palmatum (Japanese maple) is to twist it into tight loops (the bottom of the stem may be too brittle to do this, but it should still be soft and pliable enough near the top). Then, next spring, the wire is removed and the stem will stay in this shape. As it thickens over subsequent seasons, it will fuse to itself to form a fat knot that now has some close-packed internodes. Once this is done after a few season's of growth, it get layered off , making the girdle in the knot so that it becomes a fat little trunk of make a small tree you continue having years of fun with.
• The pine definitely isn't a black pine. P. thunbergii needles are fairly stiff, have sharp points and are in sets of two. I cannot tell for sure, but your pine looks to have 5 needles per sheath (little bundle of needles). This plus the softness means of the needles means it is a white pine, maybe a Japanese white pine (pinus parviflora). There are other white pines, but their needles are longer. At any rate it does't look very healthy. Keep it in full sun, give it a little fertilizer and keep the soil on the dry side (i.e., dig your finger down into it and don't water if damp soil sticks to your finger).
• You also have a juniper. Read the BNut Resource (up there are the menu bar) on juniper foliage. Give it a try in the next few days and you can see how the foliage responds before this season is done.
• With a mulberry branch, you see what happens if you cut off, say, one-third of the branch length - you should see a new shoot emerge from the leaf axil (where the leaf joins the branch) where there is a bud hiding. You could also try carefully cutting off all the leafs (defoliating) another branch - do you get shoots everywhere there was a leaf or just certain ones, or do you just get more leaves? On another branch, keep a leaf or two at the very end/tip, but otherwise defoliate that branch - do you get new leaves, or shoots?
• Try all this mulberry stuff with three mimosa branches.

Take before/after pix of your work, then again near the end of the season (say late Sep) - there will be a quiz .

Really good post, I have none of these trees, but good info!

 

[Timbo]

Does that pine look grafted to anyone or am i seeing things? Either way I like it.

 

[sorce]

Yea...a little...

Me too!

Sorce

 

[Sunwyrm]

Thanks all! This is perfect

Got up early to dig up the azalea. Most of it's dead, any of the nice large branches certainly are. The root pad was so large that it couldn't fit into any pot I had aside from a giant planter I had on my patio. I didn't have enough medium to change out any soil so I used more dirt from where it came from. I didn't realize just how big it was or I would've waited, but do you guys think if I get more media and a larger training pot I should redo it this afternoon or let it try to recover for a little while? I'll take some more pics of it this afternoon

Just looked closer at the pine and I think you guys are right!

Thanks again for all the help. Read a ton of resource articles last night and will try trimming up the juniper and others a bit later today as well.

 

[Paradox]

Yes you can use these to learn the first very important lesson: how to keep things alive. If you cant keep things alive, you cant make bonsai out of them.

The pine: I agree with the others that it isnt a black pine. A close up of one of the needle clusters would help ID it.
I agree with Osoyoung, the pine is definitely not healthy and it is very weak. I would not do any further work on it at all right now. Just water it when it needs it and see if it can get stronger. Put a chop stick or piece of small dowel in the soil and check it to see how wet the soil is. Water when it is almost dry but not bone dry. It has a nice trunk and could make a nice little tree some day but you have to get it stronger first.

Welcome to BNut and the addiction

 

[Cypress187]

Nothing to add here, all the advise is allready given Welcome to the forum man!

 

[jomawa]

Welcome to BNut and the addiction

Bonsai 12 step groups to begin Monday, July 18 2016 at your local... Can you say "Hi my name is ______ and I'm a bonsai addict."

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice reply from @osoyoung - you got some good advice there. Mulberries are long lived trees, there are still some survivors planted by Jefferson at Monticello.

You have a nice mix of material, you will be able to explore many of the techniques of bonsai with them.

 

[Sunwyrm]

Great, I'm adding a tree addiction to my fish and coral addiction... Somehow I think it's better to hoard trees than fish tanks however.

Here's some updated pics of the azalea. Like I said the only green stuff now are thin branches, but there does seem to be some "pretty" dead wood. Keep in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I still have hope that something can be done with it! I didn't want to cut away too much, too close to the base, especially since I didn't have a good angle to work in with that planter. (How do I even find a better training pot for this monster?)

Went to the garden center today to try and pick up some of the mediums that @0soyoung recommended. I felt pretty inept since I couldn't find much of anything, and the tiny bonsai soil bags I did find were stupidly expensive. I doubt I could be planting anything larger than one of my mimosa saplings with those, lol.
Time to see what's on Amazon!

Also picked up some Osmocote plus plant food, only to get home and read it's not the best for bonsai... What fertilizer do you all recommend?

In other news, I read the Juniper resources but I didn't feel confident to start hacking away too much. I just did enough to clear away where the trunk was, but it's so low to the ground I'm not sure where to go from here. I can get my hand underneath the largest of the trunk, but the rest lays nearly on the soil and two of the branches also wrap around the inside of the pot. Should I wait til I repot it to do anymore so I can see it better? Or are you guys able to tell what I should do now?

My mom's yard has some Ash looking trees with trunks that seem like they might be interesting, if a little bigger than my mulberry and pine trunks. If I can get good at air layering, that seems like a pretty nice way to collect some cool looking stuff. On that topic, do I start at the top of the mulberry and work down after? Where would you guys start and how big should the cuts be?

@Paradox - I'll see if I can't get a nice pic of the needles. It did look much worse for wear last year (Tbh I thought it a goner last fall and just left it out for the winter), almost all of the needles are fairly new and haven't regained their original softness yet. I did pet a European White Pine today, and while similar, I didn't think it was quite the same level of fluffiness that I remembered...

Thank you again for the stellar advice @0soyoung. and for the warm welcome from everyone else!

 

[0soyoung]

Also picked up some Osmocote plus plant food, only to get home and read it's not the best for bonsai...

News to me. That is what I use.

NAPA 8822 diatomaceous earth is sold at NAPA auto parts stores. Turface MVP at Ewing Irrigation Centers and John Deere Lanscape Centers. Don't buy any of that expensive 'bonsai soil' stuff. You are good to go for this year, but you will want to get a stock of decent inorganic substrate before next spring.

Over the next few weeks introduce the azalea to more sun. Since it has been in the shade, the foliage is 'shade adapted'. Abruptly putting it in the sun will overload the light harvesting centers and the leaves will react by turning reddish. This is because of a layer of red anthocyanin that is manufactured to protect the chlorophyl. The size of the light harvesting centers is adjusted without creating the anthocyanin 'sunglasses' if you raise the light level more gradually. Azaleas will bud on bared stem in the sun, but FIRST get it healthy - no more disturbing the roots and a little TLC for the rest of this season. Next spring, some cutback after flowering (time).

Your juniper also needs to get healthier (greener), but you need to learn how to handle the foliage. You read the three-part resource on juniper foliage - right? I see at least one branch/shoot going left in your pix that have started to branch. The key point if that there is a little tuft on the end of every little shoot. Take that tip off and new little foliage shoots should appear and a few weeks. Then (later), you will trim out the center. If you don't find many foliage shoots with little shoots growing out to the side, you can snip off the tip to get it started. You just don't want to mow all of these away as it will weaken the branch and the tree - don't do any more than, say, half of the shoots on one branch for now. Don't do anything to the rest of the branches/foliage for this season.

Have you done the prune a branch and two forms of defoliation (all versus leave the tip and one or two leaves at the end be) yet? Should I ask why it is taking so long?

Seriously, I'm pleasantly surprised by the way you've dived in! Another day or two an you'll be left with having to get more plants, or read, or something - LOL

 

[Eric Group]

Your Pine is a Mugo Pine. I have seen it spelled Muhgo as well.. Never know which is correct..

Mimosa are challenging material for Bonsai- compound leaves, "wimpy" growth habits, short life spans... Focus on better material.

Completely disagree with Oso on the soil components... Turface and Napa Oil dry are far from the best stuff out there, and I haven't found them much easier to get than real Bonsai soil which is more expensive but widely available online.. If Akadama is hard to find or too expensive, get PUMICE. You can buy it in 3.5 gallon bags online real cheap and when mixed with just about anything else, you get fantastic results. If you ARE going to use turface, use it mixed with pumice and small chunks of pine bark or something comparable to that. Turface on it's own can lead to all sorts of issues.... I used it for years, but had inconsistent results. Moving to a better substrate increased the health of all the trees I have- BUT don't put ANY OF YOUR TREES IN ANY INORGANIC BONSAI SOIL UNTIL THEY ARE READY TO BE BONSAI!!

IOW- if you are growing trees out, "developing" them... USE POTTING SOIL in big pots or plant/ leave Them in the ground! That is the biggest mistake people new to bonsai make- and the most widely given BAD advice by people on Bonsai forums: "get___ inorganic substrate, and move your trees in there"... Then we hear back 6 months later something to the effect of "we'll all my trees died, guess I am just not good at bonsai".... So, keep your trees ALIVE and growing first. Worry about fast drainin mixes designed to slow their growth and development once you have the trunks where you want them and are doing final designs...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you can't find pumice, for material in training, I use Perlite. My hydroponics grow shop stocks a coarse perlite in 3 cu ft bags for about $40. Particles average about 1/4 inch. You must sift the fines out, a set of sieves from bonsai supply mail order will be about $25 - use window screen if you don't have sieves. Perlite will improve a mix at any percentage, I've even used it at 100%, with good results. For my azalea I use perlite - fir bark - kanuma mixed roughly equal. If you can't get Kanuma, maybe 1/2 part peat moss instead, again all components sifted before blending. Some peat moss sources you will have 90% go through window screen, thats okay you only want the portion coarse enough to stay on top of window screen. Perlite is an excellent substitute for pumice. except it is light weight, in some blends it will float up and segregate. I will top dress pots with perlite with a thin layer, 1/4 inch, of long fiber sphanum moss to hold the perlite down.

 

[0soyoung]

@Sunwyrm, Walter Pall has made some of the greatest bonsai in the world. I suggest that you read this before you get sucked up into the infamous BNut soil wars.

 

[Timbo]

I'm not sure what is considered cheap but buying DE is so much cheaper, can't even get pumice up here that i can find and the shipping costs alone are crazy. I suppose if you have a club that bulk orders it might be worth it.

 

[Alain]

Your Pine is a Mugo Pine. I have seen it spelled Muhgo as well.. Never know which is correct..

I saw both spellings actually.

And yes @Sunwyrm your pine is a mugo, and it doesn't look healthy at all.
You should take it in emergency to the mugo train and ask @Vance Wood what to do with it:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/all-aboard-the-mugo-train.19019/page-48#post-371749

July and August are the months to work on mugo if something could be done with yours Vance will know.

Also for your baby maple from the street (the red maple, but you could find several other species from the urban landscape spawning everywhere): I have a lot of fun collecting them (I just pull them from the ground like radishes, if they don't come or the roots suck I let them) and try to build a maple's forest with them.
Their roots grow strong and quick and they could be perfect for the purpose and also, as it is a forest, each individual tree could be much 'simpler' than a single tree bonsai. This allows to overpass a lot of the difficulties @0soyoung was mentioning.

If it's healthy you could chop the trunk of this kinds of maples (at this time of the year more or less) and it will bud back - normally - even if you don't let a leaf.
This will allow you to shorten the trunk if you wish and it should increase the number of start of branches.

 

[M. Frary]

BUT don't put ANY OF YOUR TREES IN ANY INORGANIC BONSAI SOIL UNTIL THEY ARE READY TO BE BONSAI!!

I have trees growing out in buckets of pure floor dry. I get trees into inorganic substrate as soon as possible.

 

[Eric Group]

I have trees growing out in buckets of pure floor dry. I get trees into inorganic substrate as soon as possible.

I know man- many people do that, and have success with it.

My point was- recommending a BEGINNER who is used to watering trees growing in potting soil to take them and drop them in an inorganic mix is typically going to lead to bad things! Normally they wind up not watering enough and there trees don't last long. I have trees growing in all manner of organic and inorganic mixes, trying to experiment and find what works best for me.. But for beginners it just seems wreckless to me to tell them to toss their young stock in these free draining mixes. What the young trees need is growth, vigor and years of development... They will have more consistent success with ground growing and using normal potting soil in large pots than they will in a mix like yours- or MINE- if the goal is to learn how to care for trees and develop them into bonsai.

I was not trying to rehash the old soil wars as much as I was just trying to tell an admitted beginner not to rush into these inorganic mixes. Take it slow, let time do the work, and as you learn more and become more comfortable with caring for your trees, you can start refining your techniques and soils to fit your needs...

Wasn't bashing you guys who use turface or oil dry, though I will say again my experience has been that pumice is a better soil component than either of those... I do still use turface for some things, but don't have a Napa close by and haven't had much success finding an easy source for the oil dry... Your trees seem to grow great it in Mike, and if it is readily available, works well for you, I can see why you stick with it.