Beginner with soil question

[vario]

Hi I am just getting into the bonsai hobby. I have bought a Parson's Juniper, a San Jose Juniper, and a Birds Nest Spruce from the local nursery that I will be turning into my first bonsai s. I have a question about soils for these plants. I was going to put them all in conventional clay pots and potting soil at first for a few months and prune and stake, maybe wire them in that environment first (hoping this would be more forgiving of mistakes), then move them to bonsai pots in the late summer/early fall. I live in the mid atlantic region of the US.

I have
1) Hartz's PH5 Cat litter, seems to be mostly clay particles with no strange additives.
2) Red Lava Rock, which I probably need to crush into smaller chunks
3) Coarse Sand, which is closer to sharp pebbles
4) well composted potting soil from the garden, most of our plants seem to like it a lot

Would any of these comprise a decent mix and in what proportion would you guys suggest? Do I need anything else?

 

[sorce]

Do I need anything else?

A camera and a dime!

Car litter sounds suspect.
(Napa 8822 isn't.)

Course sand sounds good...
Maybe with some potting soil.

I'm a certified caveman...
And I won't even smash rocks!

Sifted Napa 8822 works fine.

Iffin you ain't gonna use Boon Mix.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[vario]

alright I will look into the napa thanks for the help

 

[Paradox]

Cat litter in the U.S. is not usable for bonsai soil. The lava rock is good if you can get it into small enough pieces.
Some people use Napa Oil dry. I dont so I cant speak to how well it works. The gravel is ok as a soil additive to take up some volue and save a little bit on the expensive soils, but it cant be used by itself because it doesnt retain moisture.

Be careful using potting soil. It can retain too much water and rot your roots.

I use gravel, lava and pumice screened to the same particle size in training pots. I add in akadama once I get to more bonsai shaped training pots and regular training pots. I water every day.

Another thing is you just got these trees and you are going to repot them now. You do not want to repot them again this year. In fact, you can probably wait 2 years to repot them again. Repotting them twice in the same season and the second time at the wrong time at that will probably kill you trees.

Dont be in a rush to put them in bonsai pots. We dont put trees into bonsai pots until they are nearly finished with development. Meaning they have reached the desired trunk size, been pruned, wired, and have developed fine branch ramification for many years and we consider them "finished" trees. Putting them into a bonsai pot too soon will slow or even stop the tree's development.

Bonsai is a slow hobby. Trees work on the order of months and years, not weeks. Doing to much to a tree all at once or over the course of a year can and most likely will kill the tree. The first thing you need to cultivate is patience and to learn how much you can do to a tree and have it live. Do more reading, research if you feel the need to do something (which most people do particularly when new).

Welcome to the addiction and good luck

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So before you choose your soil particles, think about what you are trying to accomplish. You have two junipers and a spruce. As conifers, they are going to do best in a really open soil mix with a lot of void space. Some people will go with a 100% inorganic mix, but you can certainly use organics (like screened bark bits) as long as you screen out the fines and keep the ratio relatively low - like 20% bark. You want the mix to be open and allow a lot of oxygen to the roots, while still being tight enough to stay moist and not allow the roots to dry out. Remember - your soil mix is only about water and oxygen access. You will fertilize separately and so you don't have to worry about organics in the mix for nutrients.

The problem with clay (cat litter) is that it crumbles and almost immediately breaks down into fines... and you have basically created the bonsai equivalent of concrete. There are baked clay products (Oil Dry, et al) that do a better job, but only marginally.

What you really want is some sort of jagged inorganic that you can sift into 1/4" pieces. Lava, pumice, decomposed granite all work well. Then if you want to add a little organic (in the form of 1/4" chunks) as security you can do so. Do NOT add potting mix, which once again clogs up your mix and creates concrete.

Later we can talk about using organic fertilizers on the top of your soil to provide nutrients to your tree.

 

[vario]

Cat litter in the U.S. is not usable for bonsai soil. The lava rock is good if you can get it into small enough pieces.
Some people use Napa Oil dry. I dont so I cant speak to how well it works. The gravel is ok as a soil additive to take up some volue and save a little bit on the expensive soils, but it cant be used by itself because it doesnt retain moisture.

Be careful using potting soil. It can retain too much water and rot your roots.

I use gravel, lava and pumice screened to the same particle size in training pots. I add in akadama once I get to more bonsai shaped training pots and regular training pots. I water every day.

Another thing is you just got these trees and you are going to repot them now. You do not want to repot them again this year. In fact, you can probably wait 2 years to repot them again. Repotting them twice in the same season and the second time at the wrong time at that will probably kill you trees.

Dont be in a rush to put them in bonsai pots. We dont put trees into bonsai pots until they are nearly finished with development. Meaning they have reached the desired trunk size, been pruned, wired, and have developed fine branch ramification for many years and we consider them "finished" trees. Putting them into a bonsai pot too soon will slow or even stop the tree's development.

Bonsai is a slow hobby. Trees work on the order of months and years, not weeks. Doing to much to a tree all at once or over the course of a year can and most likely will kill the tree. The first thing you need to cultivate is patience and to learn how much you can do to a tree and have it live. Do more reading, research if you feel the need to do something (which most people do particularly when new).

Welcome to the addiction and good luck

Thanks for the advice I understand it is slow. I am not in a rush with the Bonsai pot, mostly want to get them out of the plastic nursery pots and into standard clay consumer garden pots with regular potting soil. The nursery soil seems junky compared to the composted garden potting soil I have. I should probably leave it in that state for some time while I train the top and not worry about the soil mix until its time.

So before you choose your soil particles, think about what you are trying to accomplish. You have two junipers and a spruce. As conifers, they are going to do best in a really open soil mix with a lot of void space. Some people will go with a 100% inorganic mix, but you can certainly use organics (like screened bark bits) as long as you screen out the fines and keep the ratio relatively low - like 20% bark. You want the mix to be open and allow a lot of oxygen to the roots, while still being tight enough to stay moist and not allow the roots to dry out. Remember - your soil mix is only about water and oxygen access. You will fertilize separately and so you don't have to worry about organics in the mix for nutrients.

The problem with clay (cat litter) is that it crumbles and almost immediately breaks down into fines... and you have basically created the bonsai equivalent of concrete. There are baked clay products (Oil Dry, et al) that do a better job, but only marginally.

What you really want is some sort of jagged inorganic that you can sift into 1/4" pieces. Lava, pumice, decomposed granite all work well. Then if you want to add a little organic (in the form of 1/4" chunks) as security you can do so. Do NOT add potting mix, which once again clogs up your mix and creates concrete.

Later we can talk about using organic fertilizers on the top of your soil to provide nutrients to your tree.

Thanks for the info, concrete result definitely should be avoided. I should focus on the top training for now and repot and soil when I understand it all better.

What bonsai books would you guys recommend? I have looked at a few but they seem to be coffee table books rather than helpful in a technical sense.

 

[sorce]

Books are FOR the coffee table!

Learning is done here.

So far you're getting good advice...
Especially since the others remembered to tell you not to repot twice!

If you ever have a question on who's advice to question....shoot me a PM.

Ask every question!

Pics?

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

If you ever have a question on who's advice to question

Ask woody carverton.
He's helped dozens here already.
Just ask him.

 

[Bolero]

Can Bonsai be grown Hydroponiclly ?

 

[vario]

Agreed on coffee table, I got a bunch of books from the library and they are just pretty pictures with no substance. I have been watching chasnsx's videos a lot, and of course graham potter but that's a level I probably won't reach this decade. I'll take some pics later when it gets sunnier today or tomorrow.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Can Bonsai be grown Hydroponiclly ?

This subject keeps coming up on the site. I don't know, but I think it is worth finding out. I am going to check with some sites that are really big into hydroponics and see if people have been successful keep woody plants - and at what sizes.

I think, at least theoretically, it would work, but I'd love to see some case studies.

 

[vario]

I'd like to get these out of the nursery pots and into red clay consumer garden pots, should I use a bonsai soil for these larger pots or regular potting soil?

I am just thinking ahead in terms of the types of root it should form as it turns into prebonsai. But at the same time I want to ensure it gets a thick strong trunk.

 

[Paradox]

I'd like to get these out of the nursery pots and into red clay consumer garden pots, should I use a bonsai soil for these larger pots or regular potting soil?

I am just thinking ahead in terms of the types of root it should form as it turns into prebonsai. But at the same time I want to ensure it gets a thick strong trunk.

My advice is to put them in bonsai soil but put them in a container that promotes hortizontal root growth. Red terracotta pots are not the best because they are deep. Something more wide and shallow is better because getting the roots to grow horizontally now will better prepare the tree for a bonsai pot in the future.

If you are trying to get much thicker trunk than you have now, put it in the ground on top of a tile and once a year, spade around the root ball with a shovel to keep the roots short.

 

[LanceMac10]

This subject keeps coming up on the site. I don't know, but I think it is worth finding out. I am going to check with some sites that are really big into hydroponics and see if people have been successful keep woody plants - and at what sizes.

I think, at least theoretically, it would work, but I'd love to see some case studies.

Think about the "far out" pots people will come up with then!!! Will I have to drag around a "drip bag" IV for my tree? That would be my obvious concern.

 

[vario]

My advice is to put them in bonsai soil but put them in a container that promotes hortizontal root growth. Red terracotta pots are not the best because they are deep. Something more wide and shallow is better because getting the roots to grow horizontally now will better prepare the tree for a bonsai pot in the future.

If you are trying to get much thicker trunk than you have now, put it in the ground on top of a tile and once a year, spade around the root ball with a shovel to keep the roots short.

While its in the ground, can I still train it with wire and staking? Does this method work well:

Here are the photos of the plants I have bought:
tiny birds nest spruce:

Going to do nothing to this one for a year because it has nice shape and needs some development

San Jose Juniper
looks really classy, lots of curves, nice long coiled trunk

 

[vario]

Here is the Parson's Juniper:
I think the trunk looks pretty cool, very thick and sinuous. Some raw areas from nursery damage unfortunately, you might be able to see from the photos.

 

[Crabman]

I'm new as well. This is my first season. I used the nappa oil dry diatomaceous earth and pond baskets (less than two bucks at Lowes) with all my new trees and they are all bursting with growth. Actually difficult to keep up with. I cut the root ball to fit into the pond baskets then removed about 70% of the original soil before potting in the nappa. I can't remember who advised on this site to poke a hole in the bottom of the bag and add water to get rid of the dust but that worked perfectly.

 

[vario]

I'm new as well. This is my first season. I used the nappa oil dry diatomaceous earth and pond baskets (less than two bucks at Lowes) with all my new trees and they are all bursting with growth. Actually difficult to keep up with. I cut the root ball to fit into the pond baskets then removed about 70% of the original soil before potting in the nappa. I can't remember who advised on this site to poke a hole in the bottom of the bag and add water to get rid of the dust but that worked perfectly.

Seems like a good idea, so dig a hole in the earth, put the pond basket in, then put the bonsai soil in and then add plant. To remove dust I was going to use a sieve.

Are you letting them grow untrained for maximum growth or are you training them at same time?

 

[vario]

Edit: was looking at pond basket thread
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pond-baskets.18194/

Looks like I just run these like a training pot above ground, and fertilize frequently. Can I use Jobe Spikes?
Are you using only nappa or are you using other things in the mix such as organics or lava rock?

 

[Paradox]

No on the jobes spikes. Way too big and too much for a potted tree.

You're better off for now with Miracle grow power that you mix and feed with.

As for your training question, it depends, like so many things in bonsai.

If you repot, it's best with most trees to let them recover before you start doing work on them. if you do too much too soon/quickly you'll have a dead tree.