Ben and Luke (Ulmus Parvifolia)

ConorDash

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Hello,

So here is Ben and Luke. Have posted a thread with some pics of them before but not specifically on them both.

Ben is the older one (some even call him Ol' Ben) thicker trunk (and GREAT bark, I love it). Luke is thinner and can see at its base, its just starting to get the nice bark that Ben has. So he is Luke is learning in the ways of... nature, from Luke.
They had a small falling out over which direction to go recently, Luke wants to rush off, Ben wants him to stay to resume bonsai training.
Heres some pics:

wSuQ0BH.jpg
qYFqZKD.jpg tCNXU7x.jpg
And its bark, which I really love. Someone can feel free to try and burst my bubble, telling me the bark isn't good, if they want to :p.

eJtqfTk.jpg

And Luke, the hasty one, younger but still lovely little tree.

6Xrz0Ko.jpg ocsNCpa.jpg
And the beginning of its nice bark:

pZyw2gn.jpg

Will do another post on my thoughts on it, and see what you all think.
Any and all criticism is appreciated and encouraged.

The day I post a tree on here and expect you all to tell me its perfect, is the day I go find Mirkwood forest and tell them I'm a long lost elf.

Oh, also these are a few of the trees I got from Bobby. They were in the ground growing for a year, I believe. Credit to him, again, for helping me out with such great little trees.
 

sorce

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No matter what anyone says ever......

I would never cut that inside branch off Ben.

Ben is pooing on the rule book and I like it!

Not much about Luke....
Except now I'm more confused about who his father is!

I dig the base there.

Nice!

Sorce
 

ConorDash

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I have hard pruned these both, following advice I was given on another Chinese Elm, trying to apply that advice with these. But I am quite new to hard pruning back like this, so please do tell me wrong and right bits.

On Ben, I left on 2 branches which I believe need to be removed but I just wanted to check with others, as to whether they can be used at all. I'm fairly certain they should be removed though. Red circle are the 2 branches, also coming from same spot.
The green is line is showing where I could potentially wire the other low branch, to bring him round to helping with the canopy. Or he could be removed too. I can think of reasons to and against it, so, tell me what you think. :)

wSuQ0BH edit.jpg

And then Luke has a splitting headache...

ocsNCpa.jpg

As far as I can tell, both sides of the split apex are alive, and I quite like it. So I would like to keep and make it as a feature, rather unique really. Interested to see what you think :)
 

sorce

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tell me what you think. :)

Please see above!

Add...

That branch coming straight toward you, is remove that....

To me, something happened on the left side, nothing wants to grow there.

And that little inside branch is hiding from whatever it is.

Like a real scary mother daughter tree where mother has already taken a hit and is gaurding that growth....

If you must need a reason for it to be there, and not another trunk...

Consider it a Joey!

Sorce
 

sorce

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IMO....

"Not having inside curve branches"

Is a good aesthetic rule.

But you can see this one is low enough to not soften your bend, and won't ruin the taper.

That eye poker branch is killing your taper, I wouldn't want that part between the first branch and it getting any thicker.

IMO IMO.

Sorce
 

ConorDash

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No matter what anyone says ever......

I would never cut that inside branch off Ben.

Ben is pooing on the rule book and I like it!

Not much about Luke....
Except now I'm more confused about who his father is!

I dig the base there.

Nice!

Sorce

Really? That's interesting. So you would envision something like this for its future?
2 layers of canopy almost, and removal of other branch.

wSuQ0BH edit virt.jpg

I just caught up with your posting :).
Oh I just saw your latest post, NOW I caught up with you!

Its very interesting you should say that, as generally, as you say, its against the rule, but I can see your reasoning.. That's very interesting. I'm curious to see what others think of this blatant rule breaking :p.
My virt what you had in mind?
 

LanceMac10

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I'd cut that branch off from the inside bend for sure. It just looks wrong.


For sure. Trunk has a piss arch, so I would rotate it a few degrees clockwise and build some branching/ramification out towards the end of the "trunk". Similar to one of those virts, at the apex or there abouts.
Think small and try so keep a sense of scale. Maybe think about a unique shaped pot for a future re-potting option. Like a crescent, half moon, thoughtfully pinched pot/tray...


Worry about growing a healthy, vigorous tree first, as always.:)

Why yes, lass, I'll have ano...oops...:D:D:D:D:D
 

Anthony

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Conor,

just get it healthy, and the pruning part will come naturally.
You might even get a visit from Galadriel, and even a kiss.
Fare ye well.
Anthony
 

ConorDash

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It's Arwin Evenstar for me. The lady of the golden wood is kind of scary.

Scared the shit out of me when she was first offered the ring by Frodo, by the mirror and she sort of went evil for a few seconds...
Any ways,

I'd cut that branch off from the inside bend for sure. It just looks wrong.
The one on the outside of the bend I would try to bend down. And cut it back closer to the trunk.

Essentially what my thinking was in previous post then, I think. Thats good to know, thank you :).

For sure. Trunk has a piss arch, so I would rotate it a few degrees clockwise and build some branching/ramification out towards the end of the "trunk". Similar to one of those virts, at the apex or there abouts.
Think small and try so keep a sense of scale. Maybe think about a unique shaped pot for a future re-potting option. Like a crescent, half moon, thoughtfully pinched pot/tray...


Worry about growing a healthy, vigorous tree first, as always.:)

Why yes, lass, I'll have ano...oops...:D:D:D:D:D

Thats very interesting, thank you :). Ive never heard of piss shaped arch before lol. But yes, perhaps wait for now, for it to get vigorous and established in its new pot.
 

Anthony

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Conor,

ask Jeremy Norbury, your English man transplanted to Holland.
He mentioned the rest factor.

What we observed was the UK is for all, but a part up North a zone 9 to 8 [ artificially maintained by us down in the west Indies ]
and South China is also 9 to 8 and 7/6 in the mountains.

As far as was figured out, plants are grown in clay outdoors, ill treated in a container and exported to Holland, then sold out to Europe.

All of our stock elms came from Red Sun Bonsai [ Charlotte D ] don't know if they are still around and their friend's store
in Soho. Mr.Ming.

The Sageretias [ zone 7 ] all died in 2 years of life down here, but the cuttings live on fruit and are every where on the lawn.
The Fukien teas were more flexible.
The Serissas [ zone 7 ] no problems
The elms from China do weird things for winter, the Trinidadian root sprouted elms love it.

By the way the Chinese call Trinidad, "the land of eternal springtime ", as. we are normally under 30 deg.C daytime [ 30 for
up to half an hour ], and at times down to 20/18 at night for winter.
There is a sun/earth shift seen easily because both of our houses face East quite a large move from point a to b.

Anyhow due to our shorter days, the trees rest from December until around middle of February.

So if you can, test and see if the cuttings can live outdoors and ultimately the mothers.

Carl Rosner [ IBC and can be googled ] kept his serissa outdoors in New Jersey.

What maybe making all these Mallsai die is ------- no rest.
Good Growing
Anthony

* Our elms woke up a month ago. Now starting to shoot and we are trimming for ramification. after a month of
1/3 strength fertiliser [ 12 N ..........]
Strangely we are still hitting 20 deg.C for 8 to 10 hours at night. Unusual.Lots of cool breeze, sometimes Hurricane type
in nature.
 

ConorDash

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Conor,

ask Jeremy Norbury, your English man transplanted to Holland.
He mentioned the rest factor.

What we observed was the UK is for all, but a part up North a zone 9 to 8 [ artificially maintained by us down in the west Indies ]
and South China is also 9 to 8 and 7/6 in the mountains.

As far as was figured out, plants are grown in clay outdoors, ill treated in a container and exported to Holland, then sold out to Europe.

All of our stock elms came from Red Sun Bonsai [ Charlotte D ] don't know if they are still around and their friend's store
in Soho. Mr.Ming.

The Sageretias [ zone 7 ] all died in 2 years of life down here, but the cuttings live on fruit and are every where on the lawn.
The Fukien teas were more flexible.
The Serissas [ zone 7 ] no problems
The elms from China do weird things for winter, the Trinidadian root sprouted elms love it.

By the way the Chinese call Trinidad, "the land of eternal springtime ", as. we are normally under 30 deg.C daytime [ 30 for
up to half an hour ], and at times down to 20/18 at night for winter.
There is a sun/earth shift seen easily because both of our houses face East quite a large move from point a to b.

Anyhow due to our shorter days, the trees rest from December until around middle of February.

So if you can, test and see if the cuttings can live outdoors and ultimately the mothers.

Carl Rosner [ IBC and can be googled ] kept his serissa outdoors in New Jersey.

What maybe making all these Mallsai die is ------- no rest.
Good Growing
Anthony

* Our elms woke up a month ago. Now starting to shoot and we are trimming for ramification. after a month of
1/3 strength fertiliser [ 12 N ..........]
Strangely we are still hitting 20 deg.C for 8 to 10 hours at night. Unusual.Lots of cool breeze, sometimes Hurricane type
in nature.

Thanks for your info Anthony, always a good read and plenty of info :).
Do you have any thoughts on your styling for one of these trees?
 

hemmy

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Conner,

Echoing what lance said, I'd be interested in seeing pic looking straight at the curve. You've seen some of the foreshortening on those large Japanese trees where the apex leans so far forward. It might be too extreme here, but it would be interesting to see the illusion it might create.
 

BobbyLane

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I think you could prune off the two branches on the first one now Conar and build the tree from the main canopy. These trees were part of a 9 tree grove planting hence the bends n turns....they are starting to show some character now. Funny how all my C elms all drop their leaves when i had them in the ground over the winter, but held on to them when i had them on my balcony, obviously the colder temps when being field grown. Interested to see what they do in your garden.
You know, the first one would make a great windswept!
Or you could try adding a third elm for a small group planting, similar to jerry norbury's small rowan group. But if you like them as single trees thats cool too:cool:
 

BobbyLane

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you might be interested to know, these Zelkova stumps are available for £75 at the nursery i told you about, Windy banks bonsai in surrey. they've field been grown from seed over 28 years. i would if i had the space.
Zelkova stumps by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
Zelkova stumps at windy banks bonsai by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I agree, cut off the two branches on the inside curve of Ben.

Elms back bud fairly easily. You have both in grow out size containers. If they were mine, I'd let both grow out a year or two to build strength. Then chop branches back hard. They should then back bud even on the trunk. This should give a whole bunch of new choices for branches. I like the basic trunks, but find the branching awkward. Should be easy enough to redo all the branches. Granted, it will take between 5 & 10 years to get ramification of new branches to show quality. The branches you have are probably 3 to 5 years from show quality, so you would only loose maybe 5 years overall.

But whatever you do, nice trunks, I like them.
 

ConorDash

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Conner,

Echoing what lance said, I'd be interested in seeing pic looking straight at the curve. You've seen some of the foreshortening on those large Japanese trees where the apex leans so far forward. It might be too extreme here, but it would be interesting to see the illusion it might create.

Ill get you that pic, Im not sure what foreshortening of japanese trees, is? Any links or examples?

I think you could prune off the two branches on the first one now Conar and build the tree from the main canopy. These trees were part of a 9 tree grove planting hence the bends n turns....they are starting to show some character now. Funny how all my C elms all drop their leaves when i had them in the ground over the winter, but held on to them when i had them on my balcony, obviously the colder temps when being field grown. Interested to see what they do in your garden.
You know, the first one would make a great windswept!
Or you could try adding a third elm for a small group planting, similar to jerry norbury's small rowan group. But if you like them as single trees thats cool too:cool:

This winter, my 2 chinese elms didn't drop leaves. I guess cos they are so hardy, we simply don't get cold enough? I did have them in a shed though, to keep the chill off. Helped them a few degrees at least.
Yeah pruning those bottom two would be the sensible thing... I cant help being intrigued by Sorce's idea though. What do you think of that?
Ive never been a fan of windswept, Ill be honest... But ill check that out maybe.. I thought thinner trunks would be better for windswept? This has a nice strong trunk, I feel it doesn't suit the style? But honestly Im far from an expert on the style so could be entirely wrong!

I agree, cut off the two branches on the inside curve of Ben.

Elms back bud fairly easily. You have both in grow out size containers. If they were mine, I'd let both grow out a year or two to build strength. Then chop branches back hard. They should then back bud even on the trunk. This should give a whole bunch of new choices for branches. I like the basic trunks, but find the branching awkward. Should be easy enough to redo all the branches. Granted, it will take between 5 & 10 years to get ramification of new branches to show quality. The branches you have are probably 3 to 5 years from show quality, so you would only loose maybe 5 years overall.

But whatever you do, nice trunks, I like them.

Well that's a good approach. I'm not entirely unhappy with the current branches though and I feel like adding 5 years on for that opportunity of better... I'm not so sure. I don't think any of my trees will be show quality lol, but its a nice thought. I don't mind putting the extra time in to trees when needed though. Thank you for the thoughts :)
 

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