Bending unwilling branches -

[Adrian]

Hi all,

I am in the process of styling my first Juniper (Foimosa) and have hit problems bending the thicker branches. they are very spring and I have tried two strands of 3 mm wire with little to no effect. I have read about using guy wires, and in one of my books, there is detailed information about removing a wedge of branch underneath where it meets the trunk so it is more easily bent. I presume the cambium on both edges eventually merge to repair the break.

I am wondering what methods are most popular for a good result and which ones have resulted in consistent disaster, snapping etc.

I am a new to the hobby/pastime/reason for living and wish to start off armed.

Thank you in anticipation

Adrian

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

How thick is thick... My idea of a thick branch and yours are possibly very different... Often times a guy wire will be enough after getting the basic position with wire. Especially if you "slip" the cambium first by gently working the branch for a minute or two before you wire it.

If you need to bend something really thick then the wedge method or hollowing out the branch then wiring works well. But don't bother with wedging underneath... wedge on top. Though do understand that wedging tends to be a method for putting in movement close to the trunk and not so much out on the branch, as it will always look a little contrived. I can explain any of these in more detail if you like... but I have to jet for the moment.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Adrian]

How thick is thick... My idea of a thick branch and yours are possibly very different... Often times a guy wire will be enough after getting the basic position with wire. Especially if you "slip" the cambium first by gently working the branch for a minute or two before you wire it.

If you need to bend something really thick then the wedge method or hollowing out the branch then wiring works well. But don't bother with wedging underneath... wedge on top. Though do understand that wedging tends to be a method for putting in movement close to the trunk and not so much out on the branch, as it will always look a little contrived. I can explain any of these in more detail if you like... but I have to jet for the moment.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

Thanks so much Victrinia fore your help.

The branches I am trying to bend are around 1 in thick and I would like to get movement down from close to the trunk or indeed at the junction of the trunk and branch. They are the number 1 and 2 branches and are extremely springy. If you have time to explain a good method (i.e. notching etc) than I would be most indebted.

Cheers

Adrian

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Can you post a photo of the tree and and then the branches themselves where they eminate from the trunk... then tell me what degree of angle you are hoping for. When talking about 'risky' procedures, it is vital to have a sense of the tree being worked on. I could explain it in terms of methods, but to be useful we should be talking about your tree specifically.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Adrian]

Hi Victrinia
good point. I'll get some photos up. Just remember, its my first tree so expect some glaring mistakes !

cheers

Adrian

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

No doubt you're in good hands with Vic. Here are a few photos of guy wiring a branch as well: http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2011/11/26/guy-wire-primer/
Best,
BVF

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks so much Victrinia fore your help.

The branches I am trying to bend are around 1 in thick and I would like to get movement down from close to the trunk or indeed at the junction of the trunk and branch. They are the number 1 and 2 branches and are extremely springy. If you have time to explain a good method (i.e. notching etc) than I would be most indebted.

Cheers

Adrian

Guy wires are an option but you have made the statement that the branches are very springy. This tells me that the problem is not so much that you cannot get the branches to go where you want them, just a problem getting them to stay there. If this is so your problem is with the wiring. You are either not anchoring your wire properly, or you are not using heavy enough wire or a combination of the two. Sometimes the direction (clockwise counter-clockwise) in which you wire can be critical. Wiring a tree is an art in itself and neither simple or quickly learned. Usually proper wiring is not easily learned from a book, simple as it may look. If you could post a photo of how you are wiring the branches you might get even more detailed advice than what you have yet received. Guy wires are OK in certain circumstances but they tend to look un-natural unless performed properly.

 

[Adrian]

Guy wires are an option but you have made the statement that the branches are very springy. This tells me that the problem is not so much that you cannot get the branches to go where you want them, just a problem getting them to stay there. If this is so your problem is with the wiring. You are either not anchoring your wire properly, or you are not using heavy enough wire or a combination of the two. Sometimes the direction (clockwise counter-clockwise) in which you wire can be critical. Wiring a tree is an art in itself and neither simple or quickly learned. Usually proper wiring is not easily learned from a book, simple as it may look. If you could post a photo of how you are wiring the branches you might get even more detailed advice than what you have yet received. Guy wires are OK in certain circumstances but they tend to look un-natural unless performed properly.

Hi Vance, thanks for taking the time to respond. below are two photos of my first ever tree..one shows the overall tree and my very rudimentary shaping and then other is the springy branch. I stupidly snapped branch number twq so i had to make it a jin. lesson learned.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi Vance, thanks for taking the time to respond. below are two photos of my first ever tree..one shows the overall tree and my very rudimentary shaping and then other is the springy branch. I stupidly snapped branch number twq so i had to make it a jin. lesson learned.
View attachment 20330View attachment 20331

Do you have any bonsai books that have details of wiring in them? If so study them. If not get some if you can find them. Also joining a club will do a great service to you and save you a lot of time.

For now here is what I see. The art of wiring isn't just the practice of wrapping a bunch of wire coils around a branch. Your coils are probably not anchored at the back or base end. This means that the place where you start your wiring job will determines how useful the rest of the job is going to be. If the anchor is not stable the rest of the wiring job will be as unstable as the base.

To anchor a wire on a lower branch there are two things you can do. Insert an end deep into the soil and wrap the ex[posed wire around the trunk up to the lower branch then wrap it around the branch. Your turns around the branch should form a 45 degree angle to each other. Oddly, when you coil the wire the way you have done it will give you almost no holding power and may in fact lead to the problem you have encountered by snapping a branch. Another anchoring technique is to wrap a couple of turns around a neighboring branch then pull the lead end of the wire over the branch you want to wire and turn the wire as described above. Those are the two most important aspects of wiring, everything else is not much more than variations on these basic principles.

Of course the weight of the wire is important. You kind of get a feel for it, but a very thin lite wire will not move a thick stiff branch. On thick branches it is often necessary to double up on the heavy wire. This is done by applying one strand of wire, anchor to tip, then place a second strand wrapped just as close to the first strand as possible so as to touch but not overlap. Try not to place any gaps between the two. Very often it becomes necessary with very stiff branches on brittle wood to wrap the branch with raffia or heavy duty packaging tape so as to cushion the branch and prevent splitting and snapping. Then wire over the wrapping. You really have to see this done.

As you have probably discovered that this is not an easy job but there you have enough of the basics to accomplish most jobs.

 

[Kevster]

I personally prefer and almost always anchor to another branch as long as the size is close to the same. I rarely ever anchor to the trunk or stick the wire into the pot soil.

 

[capnk]

I note your other issue re getting the branch to bend at the trunk. Trying to do this may just peel the branch off the trunk. That is avoided by wrapping with raffia or other materials. Then you may want to consider very heavy wire, copper wire, or some rebar. Guy wires don't work so well for getting the bend close to the trunk. Probably time to sign up for a workshop with an experienced bonsai teacher.

 

[Vance Wood]

I note your other issue re getting the branch to bend at the trunk. Trying to do this may just peel the branch off the trunk. That is avoided by wrapping with raffia or other materials. Then you may want to consider very heavy wire, copper wire, or some rebar. Guy wires don't work so well for getting the bend close to the trunk. Probably time to sign up for a workshop with an experienced bonsai teacher.

All due respects did you read the entire thread?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

All due respects did you read the entire thread?

I think Chris was giving the person an idea of other methods to solve the same problem on different trees re: being armed etc.....

it seems pretty obvious that in this case the wire is too small and applied incorrectly (as expected for a first timer) ....

 

[Adrian]

I think Chris was giving the person an idea of other methods to solve the same problem on different trees re: being armed etc.....

it seems pretty obvious that in this case the wire is too small and applied incorrectly (as expected for a first timer) ....

sounds about right to me....I will re-wire this tree using thicker wire and better technique as described above. I really appreciate all the input and ideas everyone has taken the time to put forward.
Its my first tree so I am excited about practising my wiring and branch placement etc. to the experts here it probably looks like an average tree but at the very least I am learning more from this tree each day and I am sure that my next tree will be better.
Once I am happy with my tree, I will put it in a large grow box to fill out in time.
again, thanks so much for all your suggestions. this site is a truly great rescource

 

[capnk]

Vance,
Guilty. I didn't see that part of your reply. Sorry if I caused any offense.
Chris

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,
Guilty. I didn't see that part of your reply. Sorry if I caused any offense.
Chris

Don't worry about it, I guess the problem is really mine in expecting a little more response to the detailed description of wiring I posted earlier. The fault, and there was none, was not yours.

 

[Adrian]

Hi, this is my first attempt at working this Juniper Foemina. I re-applied most of the wiring but am yet to finish the larger branch in question. For now I put a guy wire on it until I can get some thicker gauge wire.
I think that I took off too much foliage which has resulted in most of the branches with foliage at the ends rather than closer to the trunk.
Also, there are only a small number of branches on the tree but that has more to do with the original material rather than me.
Anyway, there you have it. It is what it is and I am looking forward to learning from the mistakes I made and applying newly gained knowledge to the next tree.
any constructive comments appreciated.

cheers

Adrian

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi, this is my first attempt at working this Juniper Foemina. I re-applied most of the wiring but am yet to finish the larger branch in question. For now I put a guy wire on it until I can get some thicker gauge wire.
I think that I took off too much foliage which has resulted in most of the branches with foliage at the ends rather than closer to the trunk.
Also, there are only a small number of branches on the tree but that has more to do with the original material rather than me.
Anyway, there you have it. It is what it is and I am looking forward to learning from the mistakes I made and applying newly gained knowledge to the next tree.
any constructive comments appreciated.

cheers

Adrian



View attachment 20351

Do you have any other trees to work on currently? If you don't you should get some. Now as to this tree and where it is at present. If you want it to live I would leave it alone for a year now. You have pretty severely beaten it up; much more may be the end of it. You have learned a lot and progressed but there are some things you need to know.

Bonsai is the art of illusion. The art of bonsai is applying techniques to trees to make them appear older than they really are. One of the things used is that of proportion. What I mean is this. Most mature trees have a trunk size to height size in the 3/1 all the way to 6/1. In other words usually the minimum standard is one where the top of the tree is no more than six times larger than the diameter of the tree at the base. Some extreme, sometimes called the sumo style, will have this relation as 3 to 1. Most effective bonsai are somewhere in between. If you apply that concept to your tree I think you will find that your tree is considerably taller than the minimum artistic requirement for a bonsai. This means one of two things with this tree. You plant it out to thicken the trunk or you cut down the top to fulfill those requirements.

As the tree is now you can continue to work on it and use it as a learning experience. As a long term project you may never be happy with it because of those problems of proportions. Once you get to a point where you realize this tree is not making the cut so to speak you will have come to the point where these more detailed concepts will start to make sense. Another problem is that the branches are way too long for the mass of the trunk. I know when you first start out it is kind of discouraging to think that you have to start over at some point to make this tree better. The truth is do it now not twenty years down the road like I did.

I suggest you stick with the Juniper species because they can take a lot of abuse and will tolerate the kind of mistakes the beginner inadvertently will make. As you look for more trees to work on look for stuff with fatter trunks and then don't be afraid to cut it back to those magic proportions. Someone around here will be more than happy to help you do that, me for one. Always think trunks, especially with Junipers they are slow to thicken in a pot.

As I said I would leave this little guy alone for a year now. You can practice all of these techniques and apply them to a tree but it the tree dies in the process you have learned nothing and don't really know if those techniques ever work.

 

[Adrian]

Do you have any other trees to work on currently? If you don't you should get some. Now as to this tree and where it is at present. If you want it to live I would leave it alone for a year now. You have pretty severely beaten it up; much more may be the end of it. You have learned a lot and progressed but there are some things you need to know.

Bonsai is the art of illusion. The art of bonsai is applying techniques to trees to make them appear older than they really are. One of the things used is that of proportion. What I mean is this. Most mature trees have a trunk size to height size in the 3/1 all the way to 6/1. In other words usually the minimum standard is one where the top of the tree is no more than six times larger than the diameter of the tree at the base. Some extreme, sometimes called the sumo style, will have this relation as 3 to 1. Most effective bonsai are somewhere in between. If you apply that concept to your tree I think you will find that your tree is considerably taller than the minimum artistic requirement for a bonsai. This means one of two things with this tree. You plant it out to thicken the trunk or you cut down the top to fulfill those requirements.

As the tree is now you can continue to work on it and use it as a learning experience. As a long term project you may never be happy with it because of those problems of proportions. Once you get to a point where you realize this tree is not making the cut so to speak you will have come to the point where these more detailed concepts will start to make sense. Another problem is that the branches are way too long for the mass of the trunk. I know when you first start out it is kind of discouraging to think that you have to start over at some point to make this tree better. The truth is do it now not twenty years down the road like I did.

I suggest you stick with the Juniper species because they can take a lot of abuse and will tolerate the kind of mistakes the beginner inadvertently will make. As you look for more trees to work on look for stuff with fatter trunks and then don't be afraid to cut it back to those magic proportions. Someone around here will be more than happy to help you do that, me for one. Always think trunks, especially with Junipers they are slow to thicken in a pot.

As I said I would leave this little guy alone for a year now. You can practice all of these techniques and apply them to a tree but it the tree dies in the process you have learned nothing and don't really know if those techniques ever work.

Hi Vance, thanks very much for taking the time to reply and critique my Juniper very constructively.
All your points make sense and I will definitely get another juniper and apply the concepts you outlined.
Now that you have pointed it out, I see what you mean about proportions re trunk thickness/height ratio etc. and yes, the poor tree has definitely taken a hammering. I would very much like to let it live and grow to recover and maybe fill out some more. Maybe I could even re-style in a year or two depending on how it goes.
Do you think some of the foliage will grow back – i.e. fill out closer to the trunk – or is it a case of once the foliage is removed its gone for good?
Further, to grow this tree thicker/fuller etc – should I put it in the ground or a grow box – my wife and I are thinking of moving this year and I would hate to plant it and the rip the poor bugger out again in a few months’ time. I was thinking of making a good sized grow box out of wood.
In the meantime, I am going to keep reading, using resources such as this and going to my monthly workshop.
If you have any more salient advice related to the above, it would be more than appreciated.

All the best and thanks again

Adrian

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Adrian,
A little food for thought...As you begin to style more, also keep in mind that the present trunk may not be the best final trunk line; particularly if it lacks taper, movement, or interest. Consider the juniper you styled and posted (a respectable wire job, I'll add). You could have also used the first left branch as the trunk, by removing everything above that junction, and wiring the remaining first branch upward, adding movement to it, and spreading out the remaining branches to become the entire tree. It looks like it could have been just as tall and full, and likely have some dramatic taper, and movement added with wire.

Don't know if it's already been stated, but you'll also want to keep growth closer to the trunk, and remove growth which is further from the trunk...opposite from a beginners instincts. Removing the interior growth does reveal some branching, which is good, but also results in the poodle look.

Regards,
BVF