Benefits of vinegar?

[bonsairxmd]

Someone in our club mentioned adding 1 tsp of vinegar per gallon to a chemical fertilizer solution to increase the absorption of fertilizer by the roots. He also recommended 1 tablespoon of vinegar per gallon of water applied monthly to flush the salts out of the soil if using chemical fertilizer.

Has anyone ever heard of this or done either of these? Thanks

 

[edprocoat]

Chad, that would depend on the plant. Azaleas love acid, vinegar helps them shine. I would think on many other plants the acid would not help and most likely harm the plant.

ed

 

[crust]

If you have alkaline water or water that has a lot of minerals this is sometimes done--one has to watch carefully to see affects and make adjustments. Essentially you are giving your soil a periodic acid wash which can release accumulated minerals and shift your soil PH into a different (better) zone.

 

[bonsairxmd]

On a side note regarding pH, isn't Miracid an acidic version of miracle grow that's good for conifers and azalea?

 

[M. Frary]

Yes Mir acid is what I use for junipers,pines and tamaracks.

 

[fore]

Vinegar can also be sprayed on trunks to kill miss. Keep off roots though

 

[lordy]

On a side note regarding pH, isn't Miracid an acidic version of miracle grow that's good for conifers and azalea?

According to some here, Miracid does not contain the type of Nitrogen that is easily used by plants. I recently spoke with a curator of a large collection who uses Holly Tone in tea bags for trees that need an acidic environment. He recommended Plant Tone for everything else. He stops this regimen in about August when he starts switching over to 0-10-10 until late October.
Regarding the vinegar in solution: never heard of that before. If you decide to try it, you might want to research it a bit more, and if you choose to proceed, check the pH first.

 

[Poink88]

...of this or done either of these?

I did this (adding vinegar on my water) on a collected azalea. My tap water pH is at 9.6 https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Water/WaterQualityReports2012/wqr_apr2012.pdf . It worked well but a lot of people warned me that it is not a good idea and may kill plants. Whether it helped and/or the warning is true is unknown to me.

Note that I am using the same (9.6 pH) tap water for all my plants before and and after...not seeing any problem with their growth either. My plants include lots of holly, azalea, some pine, and juniper. I used to think what I can do to change my pH, now I just relax and all my plants seem to not mind the high pH water.

I do use miracid and holly-tone about once a year.

 

[GrimLore]

I did this (adding vinegar on my water) on a collected azalea. My tap water pH is at 9.6 https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Water/WaterQualityReports2012/wqr_apr2012.pdf . It worked well but a lot of people warned me that it is not a good idea and may kill plants. Whether it helped and/or the warning is true is unknown to me.

Note that I am using the same (9.6 pH) tap water for all my plants before and and after...not seeing any problem with their growth either. My plants include lots of holly, azalea, some pine, and juniper. I used to think what I can do to change my pH, now I just relax and all my plants seem to not mind the high pH water.

I do use miracid and holly-tone about once a year.

At the last place my Wife had contractors put in 1000's of dollars worth up equipment to perfect the water - not for plants but for the overall resale as it was a higher end property. Here we put in a whole house Keystone 23n cartridge filter because the tap water reeked of chlorine. Problem solved. We can now drink it so the plants can as well and do not seem to mind it at all - I learned that from Walter Paul "If you can drink it so can your plants"...

Grimmy

 

[Zach Smith]

Someone in our club mentioned adding 1 tsp of vinegar per gallon to a chemical fertilizer solution to increase the absorption of fertilizer by the roots. He also recommended 1 tablespoon of vinegar per gallon of water applied monthly to flush the salts out of the soil if using chemical fertilizer.

Has anyone ever heard of this or done either of these? Thanks

In periods of lengthy drought, meaning four weeks or more, I use a tablespoon of white vinegar per gallon of tap water which results in a pH of about 6.2 in this watering solition based on my own water supply; I'm usually about 8.2 or thereabouts. This does no harm to the plant and helps restore the buffering capacity of the soil which is eventually worn down by repeated watering with alkaline pH municipal water. You shouldn't need to do this more than a couple of times. Don't keep on watering with it.

Zach

 

[coh]

According to some here, Miracid does not contain the type of Nitrogen that is easily used by plants. I recently spoke with a curator of a large collection who uses Holly Tone in tea bags for trees that need an acidic environment. He recommended Plant Tone for everything else. He stops this regimen in about August when he starts switching over to 0-10-10 until late October.
Regarding the vinegar in solution: never heard of that before. If you decide to try it, you might want to research it a bit more, and if you choose to proceed, check the pH first.

There was an extensive discussion on this topic a year or two ago on IBC. I'm linking to part of that discussion if anyone is interested: http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t7523p45-how-do-we-acidify-inorganic-bonsai-soil#96868

Bottom line is, the urea in miracid is converted to ammonium by soil bacteria, and when plants take up ammonium they release hydrogen ions, thus indirectly acidifying the soil. Indirect because the miracid solution itself is not acidic (I've tested), it is the hydrogen ions released by the plant roots that acidifies the soil.

At least, that's how I understand it. The post I'm linking to above was written by 63pmp who is also a member here...and seems to have a very good understanding of the chemistry involved.

Note, the adage "if it's safe to drink, it's safe for the plants" is not necessarily true. For example, hard water is safe to drink but over time can cause mineral build up or an increase in soil pH...so it may appear to be safe for plants for a while, but can cause problems in time. Some plants of course are more sensitive than others to these issues.

Regarding vinegar - many nurseries have complex acid injection systems to deal with water problems. They use much harsher acids (sulfuric, for example), so vinegar should be safe if used as suggested by Zach.

Chris

 

[GrimLore]

Someone in our club mentioned adding 1 tsp of vinegar per gallon to a chemical fertilizer solution to increase the absorption of fertilizer by the roots. He also recommended 1 tablespoon of vinegar per gallon of water applied monthly to flush the salts out of the soil if using chemical fertilizer.

Has anyone ever heard of this or done either of these? Thanks

If you want to increase absorption of nutrients the natural way is the best. Water you plants thoroughly wait 10-15 minutes - then fertilize. The plants actively seek nutrients when the roots are wet... This works great if you are using inorganic substrate and liquid fertilizers

Grimmy

 

[63pmp]

If you scroll down through this

http://old.akronschools.com/dotAsset/71247.pdf

you will find the list of ingredients for miracid. In australia they have to list the percentage of urea used in the products, I haven't seen miracid on the shelves for a long time, but it was something like 50% urea in composition, hence the 30-10-10 claim.

The product is designed for use on the ground, not in pots.

Urea is broken down into ammonia in the soil by an enzyme called urease, which is released by bacteria into the soil. In agriculture urea is generally mixed into the soil to prevent N loss as ammonia is a highly insoluble gas; and is highly alkaline. So the breakdown of urea actually raises soil pH initially. Losses of N from agriculture use due to ammonia volatilization where it hasn't been incorporated into the soil has been measured as high as 90%.

What happens next depends on the soils pH. If it is alkali then the ammonium carbonate just hangs around. If the soil is acidic then the ammonia reacts with soil acids to form ammonium. This is then taken up by plants. The +ve charge of the ammonium ion is balanced by the release of acidity by plant roots, which lowers soil pH slightly.

see page 4 of this for complete chemical reactions, note the production of ammonium carbonate and the consumption of 2 acid molecules to produce ammonium. Making a net alkali reaction.

http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/materials/ReduceVolLoss.pdf

Check page 6 for soil pH changes, note the rise in soil pH. The claims by Scotts that it reduces soil pH is wrong, and they don't ever explain how there product lowers soil pH.

The Holly Tone product looks good. But the reality is, using an acidifying product once a month, or twice a year will do absolutely nothing for the health of your plant. It is the level of alkalinity (bicarbonate) in the water that pushes soil pH up, and the type of fertilizer you use routinely that pushes pH down.

Poink88's water analysis shows high pH, but most importantly it shows low alkalinity at an avg of 57. Water pH is a very weak force compared to plant roots and soil buffering. So he can water with pH 9.6 and it won't affect the overall soil pH as long as he uses a fertilizer with some ammonium in it.

A tablespoon of vinegar once a month does nothing for your plants.

Unless you routinely measure your soil pH you really don't know what is happening in your soils. If your plants are growing well, then chances are that you don't have a pH issue and don't need to mess with this stuff.

Anyone who has had alkalinity issues with their water will tell you how hard it is to reduce soil pH. It's not a simple as adding some vinegar once a month.

Paul

 

[coh]

Urea is broken down into ammonia in the soil by an enzyme called urease, which is released by bacteria into the soil. In agriculture urea is generally mixed into the soil to prevent N loss as ammonia is a highly insoluble gas; and is highly alkaline. So the breakdown of urea actually raises soil pH initially. Losses of N from agriculture use due to ammonia volatilization where it hasn't been incorporated into the soil has been measured as high as 90%.

What happens next depends on the soils pH. If it is alkali then the ammonium carbonate just hangs around. If the soil is acidic then the ammonia reacts with soil acids to form ammonium. This is then taken up by plants. The +ve charge of the ammonium ion is balanced by the release of acidity by plant roots, which lowers soil pH slightly.

see page 4 of this for complete chemical reactions, note the production of ammonium carbonate and the consumption of 2 acid molecules to produce ammonium. Making a net alkali reaction.

Interesting stuff, Paul. Going back to the series of articles by Argo, in his 3rd on fertilizer he stated that the conversion of urea to ammonium via nitrification released hydrogen ions, thus lowering soil pH. So his claim was that use of urea had a two fold effect that lowered soil pH - first the nitrification process followed by the uptake process.

Apparently nitrification and urea hydrolysis (the process referred to in the pdf you linked) produce opposite effects on soil pH...so how do we know which is dominant? Has recent research shown that the claim by Argo is not relevant, and that products such as miracid do have an overall tendency to increase soil pH? That's a pretty big finding if true. Does it translate to bonsai soil?

A tablespoon of vinegar once a month does nothing for your plants.

Unless you routinely measure your soil pH you really don't know what is happening in your soils. If your plants are growing well, then chances are that you don't have a pH issue and don't need to mess with this stuff.

Anyone who has had alkalinity issues with their water will tell you how hard it is to reduce soil pH. It's not a simple as adding some vinegar once a month.

Paul

Is it fair to say that "a tablespoon of vinegar once a month does nothing for your plants?" I would think that in some situations it would be helpful, if only to a minor degree. But I do agree that if you have serious issues with soil pH and water quality, you probably need to delve deeper.

Chris

 

[Lazylightningny]

MirAcid is now discontinued. The replacement is called Miracle Gro for Azalea, Camellia, and Rhododendron. I believe it is the same stuff, just re-named.

Some research I did shows that most of our common plants used for bonsai tend to like soil in the acidic range; some quite acidic, like azaleas, and some weakly acidic.

What I could not find was how much the new Miracid will decrease soil pH, and if it can be used for those plants liking a mildly acidic soil.

 

[Poink88]

...and if it can be used for those plants liking a mildly acidic soil.

I am sure it can be. As posted, my pH is 9.6 and even acid loving plants survive on it. Most plants (if not all) have a wide range of pH they thrive on...may not be optimal but they thrive never the less.

 

[63pmp]

Hi Chris,

I didn't take note of the argo articles you posted, if you put in a link I will have a look.

Nitrification is the process of converting ammonium to nitrate, a process of removing hydrogen from the nitrogen of ammonium and replacing it with oxygen. It does produce a lot of acidity. 4 hydrogen atoms for every ammonium molecule. However urea must first be converted to ammonia via urease, a pH rising step. In Argo's "Understanding pH" they only recommended ammonium based fertilizer, not urea.

But there are some issues.

Nitrification is strongly temperature depended, it doesn't start until soil temps reach 16 C. This may or may not be problem depending where you live, but it means no nitrification for many places until summer.

It is also pH dependent, preferring a soil pH >7. So process slows right down as ph drops below 7. Which may be a problem if you want to get down to 5.5 say.

When plants take up nitrate they excrete bicarbonate to balance cellular charge, pushing pH down. But this is less then the amount of acidity produced initially during nitrification.

Also leaching of nitrate lowers soil pH.

So net pH change is a balance of all these factors, and I'm not sure if all of everything that goes on is enough to lower overall pH after initial pH rise.

However the initial conversion of urea to ammonium is enzyme activated and occurs at all non freezing temperatures as long as urease is in the soil, and it is very fast, occurring within hours of urea being introduced into the soil.

Personally, my experience was that the amount of ammonium required to drop pH in my soils was harmful to my cold climate deciduous plants. I got extremely long internodes, large leaves and eventually poor growth. It was fine for pines and evergreens, but maples, beech and hornbeams struggled with it.

Running out of laptop battery so will comment on vinegar later.

Paul

 

[coh]

Hi Chris,

I didn't take note of the argo articles you posted, if you put in a link I will have a look.

I don't have a link right now, it's the Argo series "Understanding pH management and plant nutrition - Part 3: Fertilizers"

Nitrification is the process of converting ammonium to nitrate, a process of removing hydrogen from the nitrogen of ammonium and replacing it with oxygen. It does produce a lot of acidity. 4 hydrogen atoms for every ammonium molecule. However urea must first be converted to ammonia via urease, a pH rising step. In Argo's "Understanding pH" they only recommended ammonium based fertilizer, not urea.

You're right, I misread his statement - nitritification is the conversion of ammonium to nitrate, and uptake of nitrate raises soil pH. He mentions that "urea is easily converted into ammoniacal nitrogen in the substrate and therefore can be thought of as another source of ammoniacal nitrogren." But he never mentions anything about that process raising the soil pH.

When plants take up nitrate they excrete bicarbonate to balance cellular charge, pushing pH down. But this is less then the amount of acidity produced initially during nitrification.

Doesn't this (excretion of bicarbonate due to uptake of nitrate) raise pH? That's what is claimed by Argo.

Personally, my experience was that the amount of ammonium required to drop pH in my soils was harmful to my cold climate deciduous plants. I got extremely long internodes, large leaves and eventually poor growth. It was fine for pines and evergreens, but maples, beech and hornbeams struggled with it.

Interesting...can you remind me how you resolved the issue?

Running out of laptop battery so will comment on vinegar later.

Looking forward to it!

Chris

 

[63pmp]

Lazylightning said

"What I could not find was how much the new Miracid will decrease soil pH, and if it can be used for those plants liking a mildly acidic soil. "


I also have found no information or even anecdotal evidence. Seems that people recommend it without using it, or if they use it, they do not test there soils pH afterwards.

 

[63pmp]

Poink88 said

" Most plants (if not all) have a wide range of pH they thrive on...may not be optimal but they thrive never the less. "

What kind of range are you suggesting?

Paul