Bengs Spruce (Variety unidentified)

[Emrys]

So i thought i would share this recently acquired Spruce that I got from Beng. He has a great collection by the way. As I'm new and this tree is not I will be needing advice along the way. Ben has been a great help thus far but I wanted to release it to the wolves to get some well toothed advice. A few of you here seem to have a lot of experience with spruce.

Last weekend Ben and I put a subtle bend in the uper portion of the trunk as well as the first branch. We wired a few more of the branches and placed them. I also reduced the new shoots by 1/2. So my first question is based on some of your most recent posts on Brian's Enzo. Timing???? Was it a bad idea to do this bit of styling during active growth? There has been a significant loss of new needles on the new shoots that ARE "kinda " hard. The other factor is that is been in this pot for a while and needs to be repotted. I'm not sure of exactly how long as Ben doesn't have more info from the previouse owner other than it was collected by Randy Knight and has been in this pot for some time. I think it need to be repotted into a slightly larger training pot next year and fed agressivly to let bulk up, back bud and regain some vigor.






Thoughts from any and all fronts enquraged and Will be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the images being sideways. I don't have it in me to edit from my phone.

 

[october]

Hello Emrys..Beautiful tree. Major styling work like wiring, bending and branch removal are best done late in the season. Like late summer and Fall. The criteria is that you do not want to work on the tree while it is in active growth. Last year, I styled my Sitka spruce in July. Although that is early, the tree had already completed most of its growing for the season.

Rob

 

[Beng]

Wow you finished up the wiring nicely!

Still keeping it in the area of the yard that gets some shade? I wouldn't begin nudging it back out into the full sun areas till those new buds coming in begin to extend again. I think slip potting it into a larger pot of pure pumice would be a good idea if you have it. Get it to throw out adventurous new roots this season and you'll be ready to work that root mass next spring. Plus pure pumice would help to aerate the root ball from all sides. But their are others on here that know a lot more about this species then me.

Also to add to what Emrys said this tree threw out a full flush of growth once this spring "which is what he cut back." It's on it's second flush now. I won this tree in an auction and didn't get much of the prior history, i believe it's been in its pot for at least 2-3 years. The root mass was covered with moss, we removed the moss last weekend to let the root ball get more air. That's long fiber Sphagnum on top.

Ben

 

[Emrys]

Hello Emrys..Beautiful tree. Major styling work like wiring, bending and branch removal are best done late in the season. Like late summer and Fall. The criteria is that you do not want to work on the tree while it is in active growth. Last year, I styled my Sitka spruce in July. Although that is early, the tree had already completed most of its growing for the season.

Rob

From what little info we have given you could you explain how this will (might) negatively impact the tree this year?

Thank you for your time!

Emrys

 

[JudyB]

Nice catch Emrys. Beng does seem to have some good stuff. The bending looks nicely done.

 

[october]

From what little info we have given you could you explain how this will (might) negatively impact the tree this year?

Thank you for your time!

Emrys

Honestly, I am not really sure, I believe that one of the sites (bonsai4me) states that it could result in the die back of branches. At this point, you will have to wait and see. If the tree is healthy, it will probably be fine. I mean, I did mine last July. Almost 2 months ahead of where they normally say and the tree is as strong and healthy as ever. I know it is difficult, but try not to worry. I would do as Beng suggested, shade, maybe some early morning sun etc. Like the owner of the bonsai nursery that I go to and sometimes work at says... We have done all we can, now, it is up to the tree to decide.

Also, even in parts of branches do die off. You might get some back buds to replace it.

It is a beautiful tree. I hope this tree flourishes for you. You will know in about 6-8 weeks.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

Honestly, I am not really sure, I believe that one of the sites (bonsai4me) states that it could result in the die back of branches. At this point, you will have to wait and see. If the tree is healthy, it will probably be fine. I mean, I did mine last July. Almost 2 months ahead of where they normally say and the tree is as strong and healthy as ever. I know it is difficult, but try not to worry. I would do as Beng suggested, shade, maybe some early morning sun etc. Like the owner of the bonsai nursery that I go to and sometimes work at says... We have done all we can, now, it is up to the tree to decide.

Also, even in parts of branches do die off. You might get some back buds to replace it.

It is a beautiful tree. I hope this tree flourishes for you. You will know in about 6-8 weeks.

Rob

I think a lot of this depends on the species of Spruce. The large Blue Spruce of mine was heavily wired and styled two years ago in late May and June for a June show and it suffered no ill effects. I have always wired this tree in June and have never had a problem with it. I think a lot of confusion exists due to the lack of Spruce Use (poet and didn't know it) across the forum. I suspect this Spruce is White Spruce out of New York.

 

[Beng]

This came from Oregon so it has to be a species native to the north west coast where it was collected. Could it be a mountain hemlock, or fir, and not a spruce? I've been trying to identify it for some time now. Emrys thought it was a spruce as needles grow on all sides of the branch, prior to that I thought it was a mountain hemlock. It's been an ongoing guessing game.

I doubt the branches will die back it's healthy with back buds all over despite needing a repot. On the large branches we bent we used rescue tape under the rafia which seals in any moisture loss from possible fissures. Learned about using rescue tape from Mauro Stemberger. The raffia was done tightly, some stress is normal after any bending. The work done on this tree wasn't very intense, there was only one significant bend and it was just to give a nice bend to an otherwise straight branch at the top. If it dried out the needle drop could be do to that, or a change in its environment. Or it could be from needles we hit while we were wiring it. You may also want to remove the fertilizer since its showing signs of stress until growth resumes. There should be enough residual fertilizer in the root ball for new growth to push without added fertilizer.

 

[Emrys]

This came from Oregon so it has to be a species native to the north west coast where it was collected. Could it be a mountain hemlock, or fir, and not a spruce? I've been trying to identify it for some time now. Emrys thought it was a spruce as needles grow on all sides of the branch, prior to that I thought it was a mountain hemlock. It's been an ongoing guessing game.

I'm sticking with spruce.

I have answered to the question asked, in Octobers thread, maybe too subtly, whether the needles are hard. Still not sure why I'm sticking on this. But it seems like a question asked with some intent to provide insight once answered. Yes very short and very hard even the new growth....

I will wait and see how it fairs and I think I will wait for next spring to do any potting. Even slip potting into pure pumice after the premature styling seems like asking for trouble.

 

[TheSteve]

absolutely not a mountain hemlock.

 

[TheSteve]

After looking at the pics of the needles again I'm fairly certain it's an Englemann spruce. which means it's probably Sitka....

(It's Englemann if it came out of the Oregon mountains)

 

[TheSteve]

This came from Oregon so it has to be a species native to the north west coast where it was collected. Could it be a mountain hemlock, or fir, and not a spruce? .

You guys make this tough... first you say Oregon coast which would mean it has to be a Sitka then you say mountain hemlock (which grows in the mountains) so it must be an Englemann. Because it's definitely not a Brewer spruce and it's definitely a spruce. so once you clarify where it was collected you'll know what it is.

 

[Beng]

You guys make this tough... first you say Oregon coast which would mean it has to be a Sitka then you say mountain hemlock (which grows in the mountains) so it must be an Englemann. Because it's definitely not a Brewer spruce and it's definitely a spruce. so once you clarify where it was collected you'll know what it is.

I think your both right, not a hemlock. I took some time and looked at pics of needles. My guess is engleman as well as the needles are a nice green color. The older needles seem to connect to the branch in a spruce like manner as well.

 

[Beng]

You guys make this tough... first you say Oregon coast which would mean it has to be a Sitka then you say mountain hemlock (which grows in the mountains) so it must be an Englemann. Because it's definitely not a Brewer spruce and it's definitely a spruce. so once you clarify where it was collected you'll know what it is.

Came from the oregon mountains or a range near there. So englemann would be my guess having abandoned thinking its a mountain hemlock once and for all.

 

[TheSteve]

If you look at the new growth, look at the underlying branch. It has a prickly spotted look to it. That's text book spruce right there. Mountain hemlock look nothing like this tree. totally different growth pattern and their needles are shorter and stouter, almost oval shaped. They almost look like miniature leaves in a way.

 

[Emrys]

Update

The first image was taken a day or so after we styled the tree. The same day as the images in the OP. The second is of the same branch taken today, 10 days latter. This difference is indicative of almost all of the branches. It has been quite wet here. I have placed the tree in partial shade and have fertilized it on schedule with the rest of my trees.

I'm feeling kinda bummed tonight!

 

[Vance Wood]

The first image was taken a day or so after we styled the tree. The same day as the images in the OP. The second is of the same branch taken today, 10 days latter. This difference is indicative of almost all of the branches. It has been quite wet here. I have placed the tree in partial shade and have fertilized it on schedule with the rest of my trees.

I'm feeling kinda bummed tonight!

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It has always been my understanding that you do not fertilize a tree that is in stress. If the tree is not growing it is not utilizing the fertilizer. Just leave the tree alone, it does not look like it is going to die at this point, if it did there would be little to nothing to stop it. If the tree is going to survive it is going to do it inspite of some heroic effort we could imagine. Sometimes the best thing that can be done is nothing.

 

[october]

I agree with Vance that at this point, it still looks ok. When the entire tree turns a different color or turns pale, then it is dead. In which case, it usually happens all at once. This tree still has it's color, so that is a good sign. I think this might be a case of the advice they give about spruce. That is, to wait until late in the season or Fall to do styling. If not, they tend to not react well and branches die back.

Rob

 

[ghues]

Hi folks,
Back in the day learning the difference between Englemann/White Spruce and Sitka our "Dendrology Prof" told us to grab a branch tightly with your hand, if you said "s--t", or "ouch" it was either White or Englemann BUT if you said "frigging s--t" of "Frigging ouch" it was Sitka as the needles are much stiffer and more pointed.
It appears from the photos that the needles are somewhat pointed but not uniform is length like most Englemann that I saw when I worked with them for 7 years (forestry programs that is, not bonsai).
Here is a photo that shows how pointed and unifrom the needle length is on a normal healthey branch....maybe yours will look like this when it recovers.
Cheers Graham

 

[Emrys]

It has always been my understanding that you do not fertilize a tree that is in stress. If the tree is not growing it is not utilizing the fertilizer. Just leave the tree alone, it does not look like it is going to die at this point, if it did there would be little to nothing to stop it. If the tree is going to survive it is going to do it inspite of some heroic effort we could imagine. Sometimes the best thing that can be done is nothing.

Thanks Vance! It is a waiting game I know. I don't think the whole tree will die. However it is showing signs of decline daily. Two branches of the crown are surly dead. I know there are no heroic efforts but I do have to ask if carefully removing the wire from the tree would have any advantageous effect at this point? The tree is defiantly showing signs of growth too, as there are buds still pushing out albeit very slowly.