Best insecticides (sprays, systemics etc) for hibiscus that the ants&aphids aggressively colonize?

SU2

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I've got a handful of hibiscus bonsai that I keep on a separate 'quarantine' bench as they're just magnets for ants/aphids, I'm planning to take the best one and re-pot it today to get it into my 'regular' collection, on a regular bench alongside never-infested trees, and while I'm planning to do the standard 'remove all ants/aphids' when re-potting it, and will keep a keen eye on it once it's on a 'regular' bench, but was hoping for advice on what chemicals to use to help me keep ahead on this!

I've got insecticidal soap ('potassium salts of fatty acids' is the active ingredient), Bayer's 3-in-1 (could spray or drench), Daconil (chlorothalonil), and Neem oil - hoping for advice on what, if any, I could/should use in this situation!!

This is a root-over-rock specimen, going into my 1st DIY cement container so am very intent on making it work ie stay aphid-free!! Thanks :)
 

Anthony

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Insects are sign that something is wrong with your growing conditions or soil.
Use the least lethal to you.
But see where the real problem is coming from.
Good Day
Anthony
 

SU2

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Insects are sign that something is wrong with your growing conditions or soil.
Use the least lethal to you.
But see where the real problem is coming from.
Good Day
Anthony


The real problem is the ants farm them very effectively, they only go for certain species I find (I have few instances of this on my bougies, which are 90%+ of my trees), I've tried approaches where I get rid of the ants but they just come back so quickly....I guess I could get a weekly ant-killing schedule going, as they're the cause here and I make my own ant-bait so it's pretty straight-forward, I just like the ants there for everything *but* their aphid-farming!! My new hedge of Mexican Sunflower is an aphid-farming city as well, maybe I should look into the ant-free approach :/ (I'm the type that likes that, when using organic ferts, the ants are in my substrate, tilling their little passages through it!)

Didn't know if one of my systemics, or a foliar neem application, was a good approach for this one specific hibiscus that I'm about to put into 'regular circulation' with the rest of my trees....despite the overall aphid issue, I'm still interested if I should apply something, and what (I've no idea their relative lethality, thought they were all plant-safe TBH!!)
 

_#1_

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This is what I'm gonna try with the Spirea (a huge ant farming aphid magnet) next year.

Have some rocks in middle of humidity tray, or something similar.
Put tree/pot on them rocks.
Fill humidity tray till it overflow.

The idea is to act as a mote dividing the castle from outsiders. Unless them ants won't take no for an answer, then fill it up with incerticide.

I'm not sure if this will work for the ant problem but I will give this a try next year.
 

SU2

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This is what I'm gonna try with the Spirea (a huge ant farming aphid magnet) next year.

Have some rocks in middle of humidity tray, or something similar.
Put tree/pot on them rocks.
Fill humidity tray till it overflow.

The idea is to act as a mote dividing the castle from outsiders. Unless them ants won't take no for an answer, then fill it up with incerticide.

I'm not sure if this will work for the ant problem but I will give this a try next year.

A proper moat should work 100%, I mean ants can traverse water to some degree but I don't think it'd be the case for aphid farming (don't they ball-up with each other when submerged though? As a survival tactic, not food-hunting/farming tactic) Trying to moat everything would be a massive pain though! Good luck w/ the Spirea!!
 

SU2

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Kill the ants! I’ve found baits to be effective, sweet and or protein. I still have billons of ants but after awhile of baiting, they seem to stay from the benches, garden, and house (in order of importance)

https://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/crawling-insects/ant-control-products#
Yeah I make my own with boric acid, I used to do basic sugar-water or peanut-butter+sugar solutions/pastes, I've found the best is to mimic the Terro liquid bait stations, I take a bunch of little plastic bottles (50mL) and fill them w/ my solution*, it prevents evaporation which would raise the boric% higher than wanted, this is incredibly effective but within some weeks they're back in full-force, it seems it'll need to be an ongoing, routine part of nursery-management here :/

(*I've found using some milk attracts them best, I haven't run A/B trials or anything but I just do sugar-water w/ a little dash of milk in it, the fat/protein from milk must put out odor more and more the longer it sits out! I use ~4-5% boric for a ~3-5 day 'attack' on them)
 

M. Frary

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Diatomaceous earth in your mix keeps insects away.
Inorganic soil and fertilizers are a great preventative measure against bugs.
Dirt,moss,poo bags are all bug attractor.
I've gotten trees from nurseries that had Santa in them. I just put the old Napa8822 on the surface and they disappear.
I also use Bayer 3 in 1 systemic to keep flying insects like June bugs and rose chafers at bay. Take a bite and die. It also controls fungus and mites. I have none of these pest problems.
 

SU2

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Diatomaceous earth in your mix keeps insects away.
Inorganic soil and fertilizers are a great preventative measure against bugs.
Dirt,moss,poo bags are all bug attractor.
I've gotten trees from nurseries that had Santa in them. I just put the old Napa8822 on the surface and they disappear.
I also use Bayer 3 in 1 systemic to keep flying insects like June bugs and rose chafers at bay. Take a bite and die. It also controls fungus and mites. I have none of these pest problems.

I'd never heard that about DE, I mean I know that powdered DE is detrimental to exoskeletons so it's effective there (like boric acid would be) but never heard that in relation to granular DE - while I've been using ~80/20 perlite/DE in my mixes, I used to use DE exclusively (or w/ lava rock bits), and have containers that have no DE, am going to have to look into how big an effect the difference is having in my garden!

Re inorganics, yes I love that about my substrates and fertilizers (instant-release, miracle-gro and the like), unfortunately around ~1.5mo ago I got a fertilizer I thought would be great (and is, in some ways), "espoma gardentone" a 3-4-4 slow-release that's all-natural and that stuff attracts ants like crazy, I remember that, after having put it down on some plants, a couple days later I was immediately regretting it as it was drawing ants to the plants... am still on the fence about ever using the stuff again on my trees!!!

Am not trying to say you're wrong but wow, just applying DE granules to the surface did that? I use the same stuff (8822 napa :D ) and know for a fact that ants can thrive in it, as, in the past month, I un-boxed my two oldest yamadori (yardadori- I saw your semantics thread ;) ) and they were in ~85%/15% DE/rocks(hard stones, 'space savers' to stretch the DE I had when boxing them in training-boxes) Upon un-boxing I found incredibly active & heavily-populated ant colonies, like *tons* of activity, when I cracked these two boxes open!

I did my 1st test-run last night, using "insecticidal soap" that's made w/ select fatty-acids, it worked in that it killed the ants&aphids(mites? they're dark, but aphids can be too..), it's been 24hr so am just keeping an eye on the two plants I treated before using it everywhere I see any aphids/ants! I also got a longer hose so that I could use it to mechanically remove them with water-pressure (my tap is out front, so didn't actually have the ability to spray the trees before)

Didn't know bayer's 3-in-1 worked on fungus!!! I've got some of that and it was going to be my next step if the insecticidal soap didn't work, but now that you mention fungus I cannot help but think of the few bougies that I've got who've got very bad fungal issues on their bark, was meaning to do more vinegar / peroxide cleaning but it only seems to get the surface, not actually get rid of the fungal colonization :/
 

M. Frary

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Maybe it's just simply not using organics then.
 
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Ryan H

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Does anyone use any foliar spray for the fungal gnats and spider mites?? I have 3:1 which I like but have found some fungal gnats and mites will still hang around a bit.. neem kinda helps but I tend to need a foliar spray too. Would love to not buy one of those every quarter though if someone has suggestions
 
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SU2

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Maybe it's just simply not using organics then.
Oh trust me I won't! The crappy part is that I did a test-specimen, I took a bougie and put 2X the recommended rate of espoma garden-tone on it, and it's one of my fastest-growing bougies right now!! Unfortunately the stuff may as well be ant-food the way it attracts them so it's now a landscape-only fertilizer, won't be going near my trees(shrubs) again!!
 

SU2

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Does anyone use any foliar spray for the fungal gnats and spider mites?? I have 3:1 which I like but have found some fungal gnats and mites will still hang around a bit.. neem kinda helps but I tend to need a foliar spray too. Would love to not buy one of those every quarter though if someone has suggestions
I use a spray 'insecticidal soap' that I spray at mites anytime I see them, it kills on-contact and it's not a traditional pesticide it's a mixture of fatty-acids that just kill bugs on-contact, am a huge fan of the stuff!

You mention your 3-in-1 *doesn't* stop all bugs? Would you mind sharing your approach on usage? (I've got 3-in-1 here and have been dragging my feet on actually using it as I keep finding such different approaches!)
 

SU2

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A pyrethrum spray is great for immediate action, kills all bugs almost instantly. But it doesn't discriminate against the good bugs.

At least you can just spray the areas concerned.
Is it harmful to the trees? Does it need to be washed-off later?

And re 'good bugs', unfortunately I don't think I have any of those!
 

Starfox

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It's not harmful to the trees at all, you can spray it on new growth, old growth, flowers and buds and the only damage it does is to the bugs. No need to wash it off either as I think it breaks down super quickly in sunlight but it does the job on the bugs immediately. You may want to wash the bugs off though afterwards.
The only downside is it is not a preventative so if the bugs come back in a few days give them another spray.

I know it is not of much use to you as this is a Spanish brand but this is the one I use....
http://www.leroymerlin.es/fp/13773333/insecticida-biologico-polivalente-masso-garden-750ml

Maybe you can find a similar product by looking at the ingredients.
 

Ryan H

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You mention your 3-in-1 *doesn't* stop all bugs? Would you mind sharing your approach on usage? (I've got 3-in-1 here and have been dragging my feet on actually using it as I keep finding such different approaches!)

3:1 works well but flying insects that don’t lay eggs in the soil will not be effected as much. 3:1 also has a fungicide which can be great to run through occasionally. It’s important to note that it also kills the helpful fungus. I will treat with a mycorrhizal inoculate to try to help rebuild the good stuff
 
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SU2

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3:1 works well but flying insects that don’t lay eggs in the soil will not be effected as much. 3:1 also has a fungicide which can be great to run through occasionally. It’s important to note that it also kills the helpful fungus. I will treat with a mycorrhizal inoculate to try to help rebuild the good stuff
Thanks, very good to know that re it hurting fungi/myco as most of my collection is bougies and they have extensive symbiotic relationship to myco, will make sure to cover the substrate surface if/when using the stuff (although I wonder if it doesn't 'stick around', and the next time it rains it ends up soaking-into my soil anyways, killing all the good bacteria&fungi...)
 

Ryan H

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(although I wonder if it doesn't 'stick around', and the next time it rains it ends up soaking-into my soil anyways, killing all the good bacteria&fungi...)

It does stick around for a bit but I have found that for the most part it is most present in the tree itself as opposed to the soil. I believe that the myco treatment helps but that’s also why I don’t do 3:1 all the time like some will. IMO it’s best to do 3:1 treatments in groups then leave it. I’ll only treat with 3:1 every other season but will use it for 3 straight fertilizing periods (once a week for 3 weeks). Also can help to put a vitamin treatment after 3:1.. not sure why just my experience
 
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