Best sources for good annealed copper wiring?

SU2

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I've been checking old threads for sources but so often am seeing names (jim, julian...can't google that!) I've never ordered wire (always had romex to go through, finally ran out), I'd rather get wire that's been well annealed / as soft as possible, any suggestions for online retailers would be greatly appreciated! Am looking for assorted gauges, copper only, thanks!
 

PiñonJ

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I've been checking old threads for sources but so often am seeing names (jim, julian...can't google that!) I've never ordered wire (always had romex to go through, finally ran out), I'd rather get wire that's been well annealed / as soft as possible, any suggestions for online retailers would be greatly appreciated! Am looking for assorted gauges, copper only, thanks!
Julian Adams, adamsbonsai.com. He has everything up to 6 ga. For 4 ga. you’ll have to go to Jim Gremel. His website is down and I don’t know his email address off the top of my head, but I’m sure someone will chime in. Adams’s wire is less expensive than Gremel’s and some will say the difference is worth it, but I’ve never had a complaint about Julian’s wire. Just be aware that he sells by length, whereas most sell by weight, so the difference is not as great as it first appears.
 

TN_Jim

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know little about it, and started throwing wire in a hot wood fire from watching, Appalachian bonsai (winter something?), on YouTube..

Habitat for humanity...score 50 cents-2.50 shillings...strip it, wind loose...get it out of the ashes a few days later...seems to work.

I’ve heard people talk of ‘good’ annealed wire..I don’t understand this measurement of quality. Someone please help beyond diameters.

I don’t understand buying wire from Japan.

I do get that I’m personally dealing with one relative span of diameter basically..thin ~10 mm was brittle out of fire
2E33D68E-0C4B-42A4-A24B-98C563951FEF.jpeg
 

bonsaichile

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know little about it, and started throwing wire in a hot wood fire from watching, Appalachian bonsai (winter something?), on YouTube..

Habitat for humanity...score 50 cents-2.50 shillings...strip it, wind loose...get it out of the ashes a few days later...seems to work.

I’ve heard people talk of ‘good’ annealed wire..I don’t understand this measurement of quality. Someone please help beyond diameters.

I don’t understand buying wire from Japan.

I do get that I’m personally dealing with one relative span of diameter basically..thin ~10 mm was brittle out of fire
View attachment 204748
I might be wrong, but I believe your wire ends up being brittle because you are skipping a very important step: Quench it in ice-cold water. When I anneal copper wire, I put it in my charcoal grill, and close the lid until it is white-hot. Then, I quickly submerge it in a bucket of ice with some water. That way, the wire becomes soft and supple without being brittle.
 

TN_Jim

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I might be wrong, but I believe your wire ends up being brittle because you are skipping a very important step: Quench it in ice-cold water. When I anneal copper wire, I put it in my charcoal grill, and close the lid until it is white-hot. Then, I quickly submerge it in a bucket of ice with some water. That way, the wire becomes soft and supple without being brittle.

excellent! does this also work for thinner gauge, my actual problem, not wider...I see it getting glowing bright reddish
 

bonsaichile

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excellent! does this also work for thinner gauge, my actual problem, not wider...I see it getting glowing bright reddish
It takes a long time, though. You really have to build up the heat there. I keep putting more charcoal as it turn into ambers, and I usually spend the better part of a night annealing
 

Lorax7

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I might be wrong, but I believe your wire ends up being brittle because you are skipping a very important step: Quench it in ice-cold water. When I anneal copper wire, I put it in my charcoal grill, and close the lid until it is white-hot. Then, I quickly submerge it in a bucket of ice with some water. That way, the wire becomes soft and supple without being brittle.
I’ve annealed copper wire in my gas grill. I pulled the cast iron grill surface out and just put the wire right on top of the burners to get it as hot as possible. I did not quench with water and have not had trouble with brittleness. Opening up the grill lid and letting it air cool seems to work just as well. The result probably isn’t as good as what you could achieve with a kiln, but the wire was definitely softer than it was as purchased from Home Depot. The largest wire I’ve annealed this way was 6 gauge.
 

TN_Jim

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It takes a long time, though. You really have to build up the heat there. I keep putting more charcoal as it turn into ambers, and I usually spend the better part of a night annealing

Thanks much, damn that’s interesting
 

TN_Jim

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I’ve annealed copper wire in my gas grill. I pulled the cast iron grill surface out and just put the wire right on top of the burners to get it as hot as possible. I did not quench with water and have not had trouble with brittleness. Opening up the grill lid and letting it air cool seems to work just as well. The result probably isn’t as good as what you could achieve with a kiln, but the wire was definitely softer than it was as purchased from Home Depot. The largest wire I’ve annealed this way was 6 gauge.

What is smallest gauge that was ‘good’?
 

TN_Jim

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I got ice and coals, I got neighbors with the gas grill...you thinking what I’m thinking?
 

wrcmad

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I might be wrong, but I believe your wire ends up being brittle because you are skipping a very important step: Quench it in ice-cold water. When I anneal copper wire, I put it in my charcoal grill, and close the lid until it is white-hot. Then, I quickly submerge it in a bucket of ice with some water. That way, the wire becomes soft and supple without being brittle.
Quenching makes no difference to pure copper, as there is no dissolved carbon in the microstructure. It will not affect the resulting softness, quench or no quench.
Quenching affects steel/iron due to dissolved carbon, and the effect that has on a microstructure that has been rapidly cooled.
The brittleness in annealed copper wire comes from annealing at too higher temperature.
 

Lorax7

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What is smallest gauge that was ‘good’?
The 6 gauge was still a bit stiffer than I would have liked. The 8 gauge was better than the 6 gauge. Everything thinner than that was great. I’m going to try cooking it longer next time to see if that makes a difference for the big wire.
 

Kendo

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It is an international standard that all wire used is annealed. This is to increase the conductivity rating. Home depot has large selection of hobby gauge wire.

" In 1913, the international Electro-Technical Commission set the conductivity of copper at 100% in their International annealed Copper Standard (IACS). This means that copper provides more current carrying capacity for a given diameter of wire than any other engineering metal. Today, copper conductors used in building wire actually have a conductivity rating of 100% or better, based on the IACS scale."
 

Lorax7

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It is an international standard that all wire used is annealed. This is to increase the conductivity rating. Home depot has large selection of hobby gauge wire.

" In 1913, the international Electro-Technical Commission set the conductivity of copper at 100% in their International annealed Copper Standard (IACS). This means that copper provides more current carrying capacity for a given diameter of wire than any other engineering metal. Today, copper conductors used in building wire actually have a conductivity rating of 100% or better, based on the IACS scale."
The stuff I bought says “soft drawn annealed” or something like that on the package. However, the 6 and 8 gauge are, in my opinion, entirely unsuitable for the purpose of bonsai wiring the way it comes from the store. Annealing it yourself makes a real difference in the pliability of the wire. Sure, it’s annealed at the factory, but you can’t tell from the package if it was annealed before or after it was drawn & before or after it was wound in a spool. I very much doubt that they anneal it after it’s wound. So, it work-hardens during winding and that’s enough to make it worthless for bonsai.

Another reason to buy specialty wire for bonsai or to anneal your own is coil diameter. Larger diameter is better because it will experience less work-hardening as it comes off the roll (it’s bending less). Some people avoid the coil altogether and unroll the wire and cut it into straight sections prior to annealing.
 

Adair M

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Jim Gremel can be reached via email: jimgremel@gmail.com

Jim anneals his in a kiln, so he can bring it to the exact right temperature for the exact amount of time. Jim used to work for Boeing, he’s an engineer. He has figured out howl ling each gauge needs to be fired at what temperature. He conducted tests, then measured the stiffness. Optimized the process for each gauge. He lets it cool down slowly in the kiln. Sold by weight.

Julian does his in a fire. Www.adamsbonsai.com. Less scientific, but he has lots of experience. He quenches his wire. Sold by the foot.

They’re both good, i have used both. MI prefer Jim’s. Neither of these gentlemen are getting any younger. Stock up!

Both will be at the Nationals next month.
 

Adair M

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The stuff I bought says “soft drawn annealed” or something like that on the package. However, the 6 and 8 gauge are, in my opinion, entirely unsuitable for the purpose of bonsai wiring the way it comes from the store. Annealing it yourself makes a real difference in the pliability of the wire. Sure, it’s annealed at the factory, but you can’t tell from the package if it was annealed before or after it was drawn & before or after it was wound in a spool. I very much doubt that they anneal it after it’s wound. So, it work-hardens during winding and that’s enough to make it worthless for bonsai.

Another reason to buy specialty wire for bonsai or to anneal your own is coil diameter. Larger diameter is better because it will experience less work-hardening as it comes off the roll (it’s bending less). Some people avoid the coil altogether and unroll the wire and cut it into straight sections prior to annealing.
When most people cut a piece of wire off the roll to use for wiring the tree, they subconsiously straighten it before they even put it on the tree! Which, of course, starts to stiffen it before they even get started! I teach NOT to do that. The bonsai shop owner where I teach classes uses aluminum. But he’s heard me teach. One day, I was wiring tree, and he watched me for a while, and he remarked, “Gee, you really don’t straighten the wire before you use it! I thought you were just kidding!”
 

TN_Jim

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When most people cut a piece of wire off the roll to use for wiring the tree, they subconsiously straighten it before they even put it on the tree! Which, of course, starts to stiffen it before they even get started! I teach NOT to do that. The bonsai shop owner where I teach classes uses aluminum. But he’s heard me teach. One day, I was wiring tree, and he watched me for a while, and he remarked, “Gee, you really don’t straighten the wire before you use it! I thought you were just kidding!”

From looking at the chemistry of copper this (don’t straighten it) makes sense to me in literal application -moving around and between branches...why is it the natural inclination to stretch out a piece?..easier to measure??..trees are not generally linear.

However, given the more you bend copper the more ridgid it becomes, it almost seems that straightening it, bending back into a hoop, and immediately applying could add some fragment of strength.

I like what you are saying, and don’t think I will again attempt to wire a tree with that whip form
 
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