Best time to style a maple?

[0soyoung]

my question to this is, some types of maples hold onto there leaves, even though dormant thru the winter, and dont fall off until new buds appear, what should i look for in those to see the 10- 14 day period before cutting back?

Hmmm. I didn't know that.

At any rate, the tree is either dormant or dead when the leaves are curled, completely brown, and crispy.

BTW, maples generate stem pressure during the freeze-thaw cycling of late winter / early spring. This is what causes the bleeding. If the bleeding bothers you, get your pruning done before then. The stem pressure of Acer sac., BTW, leads to 'bleeding' maple syrup when a tap is pounded into the xylem in the spring. Like resin bleeding with conifer pruning, sap bleeding with pruning maples in spring is little more than an esthetic concern - it doesn't harm the tree.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Let's try this one more time. I don't think there is any thinking going on on the West Coast.

The major cutting back on JAPANESE MAPLES is recommended to be timed 10-14 days after the leaves drop.

Smoke, it doesn't make a dang bit of difference where the tree is sitting. If it drops its leaves on 15Oct then the prime time to do major cutting on it is between the 25th and 29th. If a tree drops it's leaves on the Fourth Of July then the prime time to do major work is between the 14th and 19th of July. Take the dang thing to Australia and the same thing applies, when ever the tree reacts to the climate it is in then the bonsai keeper needs to react as well.

The tree doesn't care where it is, it starts the leaf dropping process based on the climate at that spot and the chemical processes going on inside of it. And yes, if a tree is moved from New England to where ever the heck you are, when it drops its leaves the 10-14 day window starts. The tree and it's reaction to the climate where it is living determines when the best time is. Get it?

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

So what you are saying is that if I own a maple in the state of Maine and it loses it's leaves every year around the 10th of Oct.

Then I suddenly get transferred to San Diego Cal., the tree will continue to lose it's leaves in Oct. based on it's genetic code?

Please point out where I said that, I missed it for some reason.

 

[Smoke]

I think we are talking about two different things.

You cut yours when you want and I will cut mine when I want.

I cut mine the third week in Feb.

I would be interested in this documentation on cutting 10 to 14 days after leaf drop.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

my question to this is, some types of maples hold onto there leaves, even though dormant thru the winter, and dont fall off until new buds appear, what should i look for in those to see the 10- 14 day period before cutting back?

Please identify what maples you have in mind that act that way.

And also are they nice bright supple green leaves that are continuing to transpire and produce food for the tree or brown dessicated leaves that are hanging on the limbs and simply are stuck there till something bumps them off?

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I think we are talking about two different things.

I would be interested in this documentation on cutting 10 to 14 days after leaf drop.

Smoke, it is 1:28AM here now and I ain't breaking out any books tonight/this morning.

But from "Bonsai 4me" web site I offer the following under Japanese Maples, and I quote:

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hard-pruning and formative pruning should be carried out in Autumn after leaf-fall (preferably within 1 week) or during the mid-summer semi-dormant period when wounds can heal very quickly. Never prune during Spring as all Acer species have a habit of bleeding profusely which can severely weaken the plant or even result in the loss of branches. Ensure all wounds are sealed. "[/FONT]

 

[Smoke]

JudyB, You may have something there but my reading, and I need to go back and read again, indicates the 10-14 days after leaf drop is based on the plants physiology. A Japanese Maple is a Japanese Maple because of it's DNA not because it is grown in Tokyo or Greensboro, NC.

Had you written it this way it would have made more sense.

"...and I need to go back and read again, indicates the 10-14 days after leaf drop is ideal based on your location.
A Japanese Maple is a Japanese Maple because of it's DNA not because it is grown in Tokyo or Greensboro, NC, though a maple in Japan may lose it's leaves sooner than a plant in NC."

I read your statement to mean that a maple loses it's leaves at the same time every year regardless of location based on DNA.

 

[Smoke]

Wow....I been doing bonsai for thirty years on palmatums and tridents. literally hundreds of them. I have yet to ever see a acer bleed.

I cut all thru the year. winter, fall summer and spring. Never seen a drop of sap yet. Ever!


Anyone else here ever have a problem with maples bleeding to the point of weaking or losing branches?

Is that from Harry Harrington or someone else?

 

[Smoke]

Let's try this one more time. I don't think there is any thinking going on on the West Coast.

The major cutting back on JAPANESE MAPLES is recommended to be timed 10-14 days after the leaves drop.

Smoke, it doesn't make a dang bit of difference where the tree is sitting. If it drops its leaves on 15Oct then the prime time to do major cutting on it is between the 25th and 29th. If a tree drops it's leaves on the Fourth Of July then the prime time to do major work is between the 14th and 19th of July. Take the dang thing to Australia and the same thing applies, when ever the tree reacts to the climate it is in then the bonsai keeper needs to react as well.

The tree doesn't care where it is, it starts the leaf dropping process based on the climate at that spot and the chemical processes going on inside of it. And yes, if a tree is moved from New England to where ever the heck you are, when it drops its leaves the 10-14 day window starts. The tree and it's reaction to the climate where it is living determines when the best time is. Get it?

If you had said that in the first place ...I may had been more clear.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Anyone else here ever have a problem with maples bleeding to the point of weaking or losing branches...

Never in 20 years, with many palmatums, and to a lesser extent, tridents.
Bleeding, yes. Weak trees as a result, no. That is nonsense.

i prune my J. Maples in late December into January, a little sap beads up, but that's about it.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Smoke, Yes it is from Harry Harington's web site Bonsai4Me.

 

[rockm]

Maples will not "bleed out" and die. It's largely a cosmetic thing and the plant isn't affected all that much. People tend to think in terms of animal physiology and not plant physiology. Sap isn't blood. A tree isn't an animal. Apples and oranges...

I prune tridents and Japanese maples in late winter before buds break. Haven't had an issue. I would be very cautious about hard pruning maples in the fall because pruning can stimulate bud break below the cuts and new growth. New growth that has no future and taps the reserves that should go to getting the tree through winter and into the spring.

 

[TheDarkHorseOne]

Didn't know this was going to stimulate such conversation. I live in Indiana, and thusfar, my Maple is holding it's leaves. It is WAY out of control as far as internode growth. An inch to inch and a half. It NEEDS to be cut back to promote back budding, and stifle, if that's a correct word, the push toward length as opposed compact, more bonsai-like growth.

So, after leaf drop or in the Spring? I'd love to be able to get rid of superfluous branches and crossing branches and settle this tree into a closer version of what I envision before it goes into it's sleep. Is this topic too controversial to get something definitive? I'll defer to wiser minds, but it sure would be cool if the answers aren't so wide ranging.

 

[davetree]

I prune in early spring for all my maples. Everyone else I know in this climate prunes in early spring. It sounds like you want to prune now because you would love it, not because the tree would. Timing is everything. I trust the experience of people I know in my area before anything I have read. Why don't you ask some club members in your area what they do ?

 

[bougie nights]

DarkHorse-
I actually think all of this debate is kind of cool.
You may want to use this time to sit down with a sketch pad and plan a future for the tree. It is still growing and building up energy and pruning it now would waste another couple of weeks of growth - maybe more, as we can never predict what our part of the Midwest will do. The rampant growth you are describing is building a solid trunk and hopefully, a nebari. If you want a thicker trunk, then you may want to give it another full year of strong growth.
The 'two weeks after leaf fall' idea is new to me and interesting. However, spring pruning has generally been proven to be safe. Another consideration is to think about is chop scars - if you time your pruning appropriately, then the active growth period can cause them to heal-over more effectively. I know how tempting it is to want to go all-out on a tree, but I think right now may not be optimal for heavy pruning.

 

[rockm]

The answer isn't all that hard. Read the first page of responses...Majority side with late winter...

However, all this is up to you. "New and Different" versus "tried and true" combined with what you're trying to endo. Hard pruning to short internode length will set back trunk development. Shortening internode length is ONE OF THE LAST THINGS you do in making a maple. All of the other gross development , like trunk diameter, secondary and tertiary branching come before fine tuning...

 

[gergwebber]

Also, there is a very wide, perceptible, andcontroversial shift in pruning practices across many horticultural fields to "in season" pruning. It is hard to wade through it all... and in the end it takes the rigors of science to best prove the right practices. That means we all need to take part in the experiment.

I prefer to let my maples grow out for a while in spring because I like the new foliage.

But soon after, I begin pruning those lanky, offending inter-nodes throughout the spring and summer, stopping around august as the heat shuts the tree down.

This directly contradicts what I, and probably many others here, learned in my formative years: Prune deciduous trees in dormancy! That was the law as I heard/read/followed it.

And I still do this occasionally when I, much like you now, see an offending branch that has to go, or get a new tree in fall etc...

I like in season pruning because you are actively redistributing the energy of the tree while the tree is growing and thus get more chances to direct and form through pruning alone. Also, you waste less energy and time: nipping the bud that would be a branch!

But this is not as crazy as it sounds, just do what you want and see how the tree responds. Thats how you bonsai, acquiring the tools and materials is a trivial matter compared to the experience that you only get from work and observation.

 

[MACH5]

Also, there is a very wide, perceptible, andcontroversial shift in pruning practices across many horticultural fields to "in season" pruning. It is hard to wade through it all... and in the end it takes the rigors of science to best prove the right practices. That means we all need to take part in the experiment.

I prefer to let my maples grow out for a while in spring because I like the new foliage.

But soon after, I begin pruning those lanky, offending inter-nodes throughout the spring and summer, stopping around august as the heat shuts the tree down.

This directly contradicts what I, and probably many others here, learned in my formative years: Prune deciduous trees in dormancy! That was the law as I heard/read/followed it.

And I still do this occasionally when I, much like you now, see an offending branch that has to go, or get a new tree in fall etc...

I like in season pruning because you are actively redistributing the energy of the tree while the tree is growing and thus get more chances to direct and form through pruning alone. Also, you waste less energy and time: nipping the bud that would be a branch!

But this is not as crazy as it sounds, just do what you want and see how the tree responds. Thats how you bonsai, acquiring the tools and materials is a trivial matter compared to the experience that you only get from work and observation.

Pruning in season is not exactly against any "bonsai laws". We all must prune in season in order to keep, refine, improve etc the design of our trees. Reasons to prune in Fall or late Winter/Spring is because we're able to see clearly the structure of our trees and make design decisions and prune what's not needed. This timely pruning also serves to accomplish another important goal. It balances the strength of the different parts of the tree before some areas thicken too much ruining the design and weakening its lower parts.

I prefer to prune in late Winter before any leaves appear to redistribute the tree's energy evenly throughout well before it is transferred from roots to branches. Avoiding this, results is coarse branches and others potentially weakening and/or dying.

The question of when to prune, goes beyond traditional vs. radical thinking. Good probability that if certain proper pruning times are ignored you'll end up with something less than a well ramified and refined deciduous silhouette.

I agree with you that ultimately we all must experiment for ourselves and arrive at our own conclusions. I have stated before that IMO it depends on your location as far as pruning Fall (after leaf fall) vs. late Winter/early Spring. However I do stress that neither be ignored in favor of other seasons.

 

[TheDarkHorseOne]

Well, it's 9/30, and my gorgeous little Maple is still bearing all of it's leaves and all of it's branches for now, heh. I think someone said above that I may be a bit anxious, and that may be true as the development of the trunk and nebari are things that are important. At this point, the new shoots from this year are bending over themselves. What used to be the tallest part of the tree is losing ground to more sturdy growth from previous years. I don't want another year's growth on these shoots. I'd rather have it lower on the tree than way up to where it seems to be doing no good. I think I'm cutting back after leaf drop.

 

[Smoke]

Well, it's 9/30, and my gorgeous little Maple is still bearing all of it's leaves and all of it's branches for now, heh. I think someone said above that I may be a bit anxious, and that may be true as the development of the trunk and nebari are things that are important. At this point, the new shoots from this year are bending over themselves. What used to be the tallest part of the tree is losing ground to more sturdy growth from previous years. I don't want another year's growth on these shoots. I'd rather have it lower on the tree than way up to where it seems to be doing no good. I think I'm cutting back after leaf drop.

Have you read this yet?

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?3149-Trident-maples-a-chronical&highlight=trident+maple