Big Haw!

[Woocash]

Nice tree @Aeast! This thread is going to be a year ahead of my first collections, with several being large hawthorns, so to be able to follow your development with this one will be very interesting and educational. Very exciting.

A question for the experienced folk (@Leo in N E Illinois, @Tieball, @Mike Hennigan etc) The wood thats now a year old on this tree will have hardened off substantially and will be difficult to bend at branch unions to an angle anywhere near horizontal at a point close to the trunk. So how can this be combatted to give a realistic aesthetic in the future without the up, down sort of movement?

 

[Tieball]

I’m not an expert. Not that experienced. Not even close. But here’s what I did in a similar situation. I picked a branch that I probably would not want anyway and tested it for bending. I wasn’t able to bend too much...but I did find I had some level of flexibility in the branch yet. I arrowed two branches on your tree...they result in bar branches. You’d likely eliminate one anyway. Give the elimination branch a try. You might find you cam impact the angle and keep what you have for branches. Perhaps others have a better solution or opinion though.

In my situation...there was not really enough flex to make a difference for wiring or . I ended up cutting the branches off and starting over in spring before bud swell time. I left about a 1/2” stub where each branch was. I cut the branches off just above where I detected a small bud waiting for a glorious opportunity to shine. A new branch grew.....essentially I was starting over.

On another tree, the early wiring was a problem with the shoots far to fragile. I used gently placed guy wires (string actually) with a small leather strip at the branch and gently pulled the down and away from the trunk. The string was tied down with a simply pushpin. the branch shown in the photo was after a spring and summer growthNot glamorous. Probably frighten a lot of people. However, as uncool as it was, it worked well and was fundamentally free....and did the job.

If cutting, either to a stub or after a bending, you’re essentially using cut-and-grow.

I hope this sort of maybe makes sense.

 

[ABCarve]

Quick update on this hawthorn, had some strong growth over the summer, need some advice on branch selection, opinions?

View attachment 284846View attachment 284847View attachment 284846View attachment 284848View attachment 284849View attachment 284850View attachment 284851

Shoulda wired before it hardened off. Bring it to the spring rendezvous!

 

[Aeast]

Well dog gone it David!! I should have made a summer trip over.
Thanks for the information everyone, I appreciate it. There is still some flexibility in the branches so I think I can wire them, I just always get stuck on which branches to use in the design, I guess this is where my foresight ends.

 

[sorce]

, I just always get stuck on which branches to use in the design

I'd use all the ones you don't have yet!

Step one is always regaining health, after your early spring battle you were wise to not wire new growth.
And you got as much root growth established as you could by letting those go.

You see how there was 2 branches every frickin where there is one?
Balls!

I'd be growing the branches out of that second branch, wire em young.

You can leave ALL those branches on.
AND
Build your entire tree from different ones.

If that is not both having your cake, and eating it too, than what is?

Sorce

 

[Mike Hennigan]

You shouldn’t have a a problem wiring out 1 year old hawthorn branches, to set initial angles etc. if you wish to style it like a pine tree and not like a deciduous tree, then you probably would have to cut the branches off and wire the new ones before they harden off so that the crotch of the branch is perpendicular instead of upward. But I don’t really care for that personally, I prefer my deciduous branches to angle upward at the crotch mostly.

This is a bunch of hawthorn I put into a forest last spring. They were collected two years previous. So a mix of year old and two year old branches wired. And then then planted together afterwards. Just use the appropriate sized wire. If using aluminum, your wire should be about as thick as the branch you’re wiring. Use cut paste to patch any little cracks you get. They heal minor branch injuries pretty easily.

 

[BobbyLane]

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Oh, and I will say as a follow up about my forest planting and in regards to root work and repotting... that I root pruned them incredibly hard upon collection. So when I repotted them into the forest two years later I had lots of fine feeder roots and did not have any large roots that would have gotten in the way. So when I repotted them into the forest after two years I barely pruned any roots on any of the trees. They all grew well this past summer.

 

[Aeast]

Nice planting mike! That sounds like solid advice and they can definitely be wired still.

Everything I'm reading and watching suggest they hate root pruning and respond negatively towards it. Is this a correct assumption?

Timing wise, when would be acceptable to wire this?

 

[Tieball]

Oh, and I will say as a follow up about my forest planting and in regards to root work and repotting... that I root pruned them incredibly hard upon collection. So when I repotted them into the forest two years later I had lots of fine feeder roots and did not have any large roots that would have gotten in the way. So when I repotted them into the forest after two years I barely pruned any roots on any of the trees. They all grew well this past summer.

Well planned. Well executed.

 

[Woocash]

You shouldn’t have a a problem wiring out 1 year old hawthorn branches, to set initial angles etc. if you wish to style it like a pine tree and not like a deciduous tree, then you probably would have to cut the branches off and wire the new ones before they harden off so that the crotch of the branch is perpendicular instead of upward. But I don’t really care for that personally, I prefer my deciduous branches to angle upward at the crotch mostly.

This is a bunch of hawthorn I put into a forest last spring. They were collected two years previous. So a mix of year old and two year old branches wired. And then then planted together afterwards. Just use the appropriate sized wire. If using aluminum, your wire should be about as thick as the branch you’re wiring. Use cut paste to patch any little cracks you get. They heal minor branch injuries pretty easily.

That does make sense. Looking at some huge lime/linden trees out the window, with the odd exception, they do all start moving upwards and then gravity starts its work.

I had assumed that they would tear off at the crotch rather than split along the stem if you were too forceful. That was my thinking, but as you say, thick enough wire and care of movement is the key.

Love the forest, by the way. It's gonna be a beast.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Well planned. Well executed.

Thanks man, still a long way too go with developing taper and apexes and branching. But feel like it’s a good start!

That does make sense. Looking at some huge lime/linden trees out the window, with the odd exception, they do all start moving upwards and then gravity starts its work.

I had assumed that they would tear off at the crotch rather than split along the stem if you were too forceful. That was my thinking, but as you say, thick enough wire and care of movement is the key.

Love the forest, by the way. It's gonna be a beast.

Yea, I mean there is nothing wrong with styling deciduous trees with a pine like structure. It’s just not my taste. You can definitely snap the branches in all sorts of ways. Obviously you will not be able to put in very extreme movement like you could on a thinner/younger branch. But that’s not really necessary right now. You should be able to set a good angle for the first inch or two of the branches with correct wiring. You will probably end up pruning the branches back to an inch or two anyway when you start to develop ramification so don’t worry too much about what the ends of the branches look like right now!

 

[Tieball]

@Aeast You have an excellent start on that Hawthorn. I studied the photos of the branch growth again. It looks like the roots are growing well to achieve that growth. And, in looking again, those branches don’t look problematic at all. A carefully selected cut and grow will get this growing well. The branches aren’t that straight up actually. If you step back and imaging the next cuts and the directions those branches will grow in....you begin to see an excellent tree. Keep it healthy and growing. Excellent start!

 

[Aeast]

Just an update on this tree. It grew strong this summer and continues to progress. I was able to put a little movement in the branches but they were pretty ridged.

Should I let them thicken for another growing season or start cutting back and starting to ramify?

 

[leatherback]

Cool tree!

As hawthorn typically is slow to callus over, I would aim at cutting back more frequent to have smaller cuts.

 

[ABCarve]

I would let the lowest ones thicken and progressively prune shorter as you go up. Your lowest branches have a more upward angle......seems OK if you're going for a broom style, if not you may want to go more horizontal. I would get those squarish saw cuts carved down where you want them so they can start healing. They are very slow healers. I have some that are 20+ years old and not even close to healing over.

 

[BobbyLane]

I think there is too much emphasis on callusing and healing generally.
Hawthorn are known for being craggy, characterful trees in nature.
This tree for example has a nice natural hollow in the trunk that will likely never heal over unless put in the ground. but the hollow fits the material. so i wouldnt be hell bent on trying close up the two other chop wounds on this tree but rather reducing them and turning them into uro so they appear as natural as the base hollow. have a theme going, it will suit the material. deadwood on hawthorn turns silvery white overtime and just blends with the bark.

atm they look like chops, you could begin by taking off the straight edges to see how that affects the trunk

the high chop, if you cut that flush, its going to make the reverse taper from that angle look more pronounced. i would think about making the high knob a deadwood feature instead. scraping off the bark and hollowing it out. look on Harry harringtons pages for some ideas

 

[Aeast]

Thanks for the replies, yes carving is in the cards this winter. It should have alot more taper after that is done.

 

[kale]

For the lowest branches, I think you’re going to want them at least an inch thick. Maybe guy wire them down now and then just let them grow for a while.

 

[BobbyLane]

If you want thick lower branches, wiring them down will not encourage them to grow thick quickly. the tips need to be pointing upwards toward the light to induce rapid growth. wiring them downwards just results in them getting less light and being blocked out by branches higher up. ascending branches isnt just an aesthetic, it encourages light into the whole tree.