Big thuja with nice base

[amkhalid]

This is a very old thuja with an unusual flaring base. It was collected on thin rocky soil with a very shallow root system. Collected thuja often have good nebari, but a hersheys kiss base like this is truly a gem, even though it is as flat as a pancake..

Monsieur David Easterbrook said I should cut off the branch on the left, and create a cascading effect with the foliage on the right. While I agree that this would make a striking image and balance the tree very nicely, I would be very concerned about the effect this would have on the lovely tubular live vein and am therefore probably not willing to take that risk.

Instead, my goal for this tree is somewhat as shown in the crappy virtual. The first big, thrusting branch on the right will need to be bent down significantly, and the foliage grown way out to balance the image. It will probably be 5 years of growth before refinement can begin on this tree. Deadwood work will be gradual. An entire second trunk was killed off last summer and I am slowly blending the deadwood into the trunk so as not to disturb sap flow, hence the ugly artificial cut line.

 

[Dav4]

Great material! I totally agree with your approach to styling this tree as well. You can always remove branches down the road. It looks quite healthy...how long since collection? Good luck with it.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

a great specimen .... worthy of serious work...

it will be important that you thin the foliage as you work ... just enough to let the light in... thuja will die back on the interior if kept too dense... the creation of the crown and branching should be slow and deliberate with thining done each year to keep the foliage horizontal ... some gentle wiring of good "fronds" to make them horizontal and allow light back into the structure... you will want to keep the tree airy and let it grow for a year or two and then open it back up..... if you have ever worked with hinoki it should be similar tho I believe (don't quote me) that thuja are a little more forgiving

steady is the path with this tree but it is a piece of material to be coveted .....

Did David collect this tree?

 

[amkhalid]

a great specimen .... worthy of serious work...

it will be important that you thin the foliage as you work ... just enough to let the light in... thuja will die back on the interior if kept too dense... the creation of the crown and branching should be slow and deliberate with thining done each year to keep the foliage horizontal ... some gentle wiring of good "fronds" to make them horizontal and allow light back into the structure... you will want to keep the tree airy and let it grow for a year or two and then open it back up..... if you have ever worked with hinoki it should be similar tho I believe (don't quote me) that thuja are a little more forgiving

steady is the path with this tree but it is a piece of material to be coveted .....

Did David collect this tree?

Thanks for the advice. Thuja is like hinoki, but I have much more experience with thuja than hinoki. I would also imagine thuja is similar to the alaskan yellow cedar which you guys love, but I have sadly never worked with chamy noot.

I live in Toronto, which is the thuja mecca (don't tell anyone from Montréal I said that!), and am fortunate to have several bonsai friends who have "figured out" thuja foliage. Your advice is definitely sound. I gave the tree 2 rounds of thinning in 2011, for the exact reasons you describedd. Thuja has a bad rap, but can make outstanding bonsai with gorgeous foliage. It just takes patience and good starting material.

David critiqued the tree at a workshop in October. I collected this tree in fall 2010, with the help of a more experienced buddy. I was working at it for about an hour, had most of the rootball out. It was very loose but felt like it had an entire trunk buried in the rock. I couldnt find where to cut it, and was afraid to just yank on it as thuja wood, while risilient, is quite brittle. I was ready to let it lie. My buddy basically said "move over kid", kicked me out of the way, and with some tough love it was out in about 2 minutes.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I collected this tree in fall 2010, with the help of a more experienced buddy. I was working at it for about an hour, had most of the rootball out. It was very loose but felt like it had an entire trunk buried in the rock. I couldnt find where to cut it, and was afraid to just yank on it as thuja wood, while risilient, is quite brittle. I was ready to let it lie. My buddy basically said "move over kid", kicked me out of the way, and with some tough love it was out in about 2 minutes.

I have had those moments... and I always learn something from them.... Great to have experienced people around to teach you when its time to pull out the big guns

Glad to know the advice was sound... I haven't really work with thuja much myself so I was going on what i know and have experienced with AYC ... I totally agree that thuja can have wonderful foliage....

I look forward to seeing this tree as you work on it...

 

[crust]

Nice cedar--I like your plan better.

Hey could you give us a synopsis on Thuya foliage managment. I think the Canadians do them best.

 

[amkhalid]

Hey could you give us a synopsis on Thuya foliage managment. I think the Canadians do them best.

Hmmm... I'm by no means a thuja expert... I've only been working on them since I've gained access to legal collecting, which has been 3 years. So of course, all of my trees are in development. Nevertheless I will take a shot at sharing what I have learned about managing thuja foliage.

There seems to be two schools... the first is all about wiring the main branches, and pinch pinch pinch pinch to shape. The result is topiary and wayward fronds. This is starting to be recognized as the old school way of doing it. It does produce small, tight foliage, but It is extremely difficult to produce nice layered foliage pads since the stubby tight foliage is basically impossible to detail wire.
The result is usually something like these trees... not ideal in my humble opinion:

The second is the more modern approach. You are probably familiar with this as I think it is very similar to how Lenz treats his thuja foliage. Or at least, it gives similar results to the thuja on the cover of Bonsai from the Wild 2nd Ed. Basically 90% of the work is done with scissors, cutting out the strong growing centres and leaving smaller side shoots. After time, ramification will increase and the foliage will naturally reduce as the number of growing tips increase. Wiring is important here, to flatten out wayward fronds. Pinching is only done between scissor pruning sessions to maintain the silhouette. Given that thuja grow all year, you will probably need 2-3 scissor pruning sessions each year to maintain a tidy tree. Thuja are therefore tons of work, like junipers.
A tree being treated like this usually looks like the ones posted below. Notice that the foliage is more "shaggy" than a tree that is being pinched to death, but the definition of the pads is much better as is the directionality of the fronds. All of these trees are considered "still in development" and the tightness of the foliage will increase over time. I think the slightly shaggy but refined foliage is an absolutely gorgeous complement to the rugged trunk of thuja.

The tree on the slab is just about due for another scissor pruning.

Its important to recognize as AngelFire mentioned above that thuja need to be thinned periodically to avoid interior dieback. Interior dieback is unavoidable as the trees will shed old foliage, but if you keep on top of your scissor pruning all year, winter shedding will be minimized.
The tree below is has been managed very well for a couple of decades. It has very tight foliage, almost like a hinoki, but also has well defined pads. This is not very evident in this picture as the tree is overdue for a thinning and detail wiring... but this is what I think we should be aiming to achieve with thuja foliage. Tight foliage, but still twiggy enough that it can be detailed wired and pads formed like a juniper.

Unworked thuja foliage can be quite daunting. This is a pic of how the tree this thread started with looked like after collecting. Careful selective pruning can make a big difference, even after one season.

...or you could just graft on hinoki

 

[tmmason10]

This is some great material, I like the base a lot. Interesting tips on the foliage, good luck with it.

 

[amkhalid]

Here is another thuja.

Shortly after collecting. Its almost like its saying "back off... you want none of this!"

1 year later, slightly more tame, after two rounds of scissor pruning and detailed wiring. Branches are still developing so the foliage is kept long, but thinning is still important to avoid losing all of the interior growth.

The good thing about them is they are tough as nails. A well-collected thuja (i.e. entire rootball) can usually be thinned and lightly tweaked by August if it is collected in April, and repotted the next year. The root systems are insane for a conifer. Weaker specimens may require years of recovery.

 

[crust]

What a great diatribe and picture show. Thank you Amkhalid. I subscribe to the latter technique besides I don't have enough time or diligence to pinch that much.

 

[Gene Deci]

That is a great post amkhalid - good stuff. Thanks for taking the time

 

[ghues]

Hi Amkhalid,
A great post that I'll watch for updates as you work on these fine specimens. Also, you give an interesting discussion of how to manage the foliage of these species.
I like the shaggy effect (not pads), as I think it mirrors a more naturalistic image of them in the wild.
Out west here, we have western red cedar Thuga plicata and Alaska Cedar/Yellow Cedar/Nootka Cypress - Callitropsis nootkatensis and they are becoming more popular these days.
One thing that I’ll be trying on the foliage front is to design the branches with a gentle sweep from the bole to the end of the branch and all the foliage will hang down as seen in the attached photos.
Cheers G.

 

[Attila Soos]

Beautiful thread and great advice. Thanks Amkhalid.

It looks like the Thuja is becoming a uniquely American bonsai species, since it is unlike other bonsai, and we have the best yamadori material available. There was a time when it was regarded as unsuitable and low-grade, but this is not true anymore. And I like the modern foliage management, it has much more grace and naturalness than the image resulting from endless pinching.

 

[amkhalid]

Thuja is becoming a uniquely American bonsai species, since it is unlike other bonsai, and we have the best yamadori material available.

Wait wait... you mean Canadian, right?? Jk!

I know what you mean. It is a unique species... somewhere between a juniper and a hinoki. And some great thuja have been pulled out of american soil... I believe Marc Arpag's thuja won best native at the (2nd?) US National Exhibition. But the truly great, truly ancient thuja lie much, much farther north.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wait wait... you mean Canadian, right?? Jk!

I know what you mean. It is a unique species... somewhere between a juniper and a hinoki. And some great thuja have been pulled out of american soil... I believe Marc Arpag's thuja won best native at the (2nd?) US National Exhibition. But the truly great, truly ancient thuja lie much, much farther north.

I think you may find yourself in an argument there. A physicist at the University of Michigan not too long ago harvested some dead wood that is about the same size of the trees currently growing there. They took this material back to the U of M and looked at it through an electron microscope and found that most of the dead tree stumps were Two-thousand-years old. They were found on what they call the Canadian shield formation in Michigan. Not that this means a whole lot in the scheme of things it is however interesting.

 

[amkhalid]

I think you may find yourself in an argument there. A physicist at the University of Michigan not too long ago harvested some dead wood that is about the same size of the trees currently growing there. They took this material back to the U of M and looked at it through an electron microscope and found that most of the dead tree stumps were Two-thousand-years old. They were found on what they call the Canadian shield formation in Michigan. Not that this means a whole lot in the scheme of things it is however interesting.

Whoa - cool! I wouldn't be surprised at all. Although what is a physicist doing studying dendrochronology? And do you have a reference for this story?

The oldest documented thuja usually grow on cliffs and are uncollectable as they grow right into the rock. Even if they were, they are in protected areas so it is illegal. The trees I am referring to are nowhere near as old, but are collectable... both in the legal sense, and the practical sense.

 

[october]

This is a very informative thread. Also the collected tree you posted is just awesome. I do know that the foliage on this species can be frustrating. I have been training one for about 6-7 years. To make things worse, it is a literati. The challenge of keeping the foliage somewhat organized, but with the little or sparce foliage to accomodate the bunjin style has proved quite difficult.

Rob

 

[Ang3lfir3]

But the truly great, truly ancient thuja lie much, much farther north.

oh yeah ?????!??!?! *interest severely peaked*

 

[amkhalid]

oh yeah ?????!??!?! *interest severely peaked*

Haha... lets just say for you that would mean much, much, much further north, and much, much, much, much, much, much further east!

 

[elroy]

You can read about these cliff growing Thuja here http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/cliffs-as-natural-refuges/1

Elroy

Whoa - cool! I wouldn't be surprised at all. Although what is a physicist doing studying dendrochronology? And do you have a reference for this story?

The oldest documented thuja usually grow on cliffs and are uncollectable as they grow right into the rock. Even if they were, they are in protected areas so it is illegal. The trees I am referring to are nowhere near as old, but are collectable... both in the legal sense, and the practical sense.