Bill Valvanis "Dwarf Japanese maple" - any idea what cultivar?

[Mikecheck123]

I bought this little tree at Bill's (incredible!) garden last September during the weekend of the National Exhibition. It was labeled only as a "dwarf Japanese maple," so I was wondering if anyone could tell me more specifically what it is. It seems somewhat shishigashira-esque, but I'm not sure if that's quite right. Needless to say it was a hectic scene there, so there wasn't time to ask a lot of questions.

Now that it's getting bigger (and people keep asking ME what it is), I'd like to know more. Thanks!

 

[Nybonsai12]

Shi shi or kotohime

 

[Mikecheck123]

Shi shi or kotohime

Nice! Kotohime looks spot on. https://i0.wp.com/valavanisbonsaibl...hime-before-trimming.jpg?resize=660,590&ssl=1

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me more specifically what it is.

Do you know a molecular geneticist? Otherwise, no... no one can tell you specifically what it is.

If you are lucky, and @William N. Valavanis recalls the cultivar, he might be able to tell you. However it may be a cutting or air-layer from a non-cultivar, or it may be a seedling. The description simply means yes, it is a Japanese maple and yes, based on the growth pattern, it is a dwarf.

I wish people would stop guessing at Japanese maple cultivars when the tree might not even be a cultivar.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Do you know a molecular geneticist? Otherwise, no... no one can tell you specifically what it is.

If you are lucky, and @William N. Valavanis recalls the cultivar, he might be able to tell you. However it may be a cutting or air-layer from a non-cultivar, or it may be a seedling. The description simply means yes, it is a Japanese maple and yes, based on the growth pattern, it is a dwarf.

I wish people would stop guessing at Japanese maple cultivars when the tree might not even be a cultivar.

I agree with the overall thrust of your point. However, in this case, someone did tell me specifically what it is (and in only 1 minute lol!)

It hits all the description in the Vertrees book. In addition, Bill's extensive work with kotohime is well-documented. So I'd be really surprised if it's not kotohime.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Do you know a molecular geneticist? Otherwise, no... no one can tell you specifically what it is.

If you are lucky, and @William N. Valavanis recalls the cultivar, he might be able to tell you. However it may be a cutting or air-layer from a non-cultivar, or it may be a seedling. The description simply means yes, it is a Japanese maple and yes, based on the growth pattern, it is a dwarf.

I wish people would stop guessing at Japanese maple cultivars when the tree might not even be a cultivar.

Im trained in molecular genetics and even i cant tell what exact cultivar it is

If i had to guess its probably a seedling of Kotohime. But that’s just a guess. If it were a cultivar im sure Bill would have sold it labled as one. What you have is exactly what you called it -A Dwarf Japanese maple.

 

[SeanS]

I agree with the overall thrust of your point. However, in this case, someone did tell me specifically what it is (and in only 1 minute lol!)

It hits all the description in the Vertrees book. In addition, Bill's extensive work with kotohime is well-documented. So I'd be really surprised if it's not kotohime.

If it was kotohime, it probably would have been labelled as one. It may be a seedling of kotohime, in which case it may share every single characteristic and trait of kotohime, but it isn’t kotohime

 

[Mikecheck123]

Im trained in molecular genetics and even i cant tell what exact cultivar it is

If i had to guess its probably a seedling of Kotohime. But that’s just a guess. If it were a cultivar im sure Bill would have sold it labled as one. What you have is exactly what you called it -A Dwarf Japanese maple.

Yea, that's a likely explanation for the vague labeling that crossed my mind. Although the stick like form is reminiscent of a cutting.

Maybe I should name this new cultivar after myself....

 

[Bonsai Nut]

However, in this case, someone did tell me specifically what it is (and in only 1 minute lol!)

No they didn't. They told you what it looked like. Big difference.

I have a stone that I'm going to call a diamond because it looks just like a photo of a diamond I saw on the Internet.

Do you get my point?

 

[Mikecheck123]

No they didn't. They told you what it looked like. Big difference.

I have a stone that I'm going to call a diamond because it looks just like a photo of a diamond I saw on the Internet.

Do you get my point?

Of course. But I still know a lot more about it than I did yesterday.

 

[penumbra]

Of course. But I still know a lot more about it than I did yesterday.

Knowing is probably not a correct assessment.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Knowing is probably not a correct assessment.

Today I know these indisputable facts that I didn't know yesterday.

1) Bill does a lot of kotohime.
2) My tree matches every description of kotohime.

This is really, really useful information no matter how pedantic you want to be about cultivar purity.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

no matter how pedantic you want to be about cultivar purity.

Do you understand what a cultivar is? It's a clone. It is genetically identical to the source.... or in most cases the source's source's source's source's source.

There's no such thing as "cultivar purity". It is a cultivar, or it isn't. It is a clone, or it isn't. Doesn't matter what it looks like. Two individuals that are the same cultivar may look different because of numerous reasons. That doesn't make them not the same cultivar.

The reason why we are pedantic is that there are tons of people out there who are getting non-descript Japanese maples and calling them cultivar names without any idea whether they are cultivars or not. Then if you ever sell the tree, or sell a cutting from it, or an air-layer, suddenly we have material out there being sold as the cultivar without any provenance that it actually is. All we KNOW is that it came from your tree. Where did your tree come from? It was sold as a non-descript Japanese maple from a vendor table at a bonsai show.

We were just having this exact same discussion on another thread. I don't know why so many people wrestle with this basic concept of horticulture.

 

[Firstflush]

I won’t wrestle you nut.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Do you understand what a cultivar is? It's a clone. It is genetically identical to the source.... or in most cases the source's source's source's source's source.

There's no such thing as "cultivar purity". It is a cultivar, or it isn't. It is a clone, or it isn't. Doesn't matter what it looks like. Two individuals that are the same cultivar may look different because of numerous reasons. That doesn't make them not the same cultivar.

The reason why we are pedantic is that there are tons of people out there who are getting non-descript Japanese maples and calling them cultivar names without any idea whether they are cultivars or not. Then if you ever sell the tree, or sell a cutting from it, or an air-layer, suddenly we have material out there being sold as the cultivar without any provenance that it actually is. All we KNOW is that it came from your tree. Where did your tree come from? It was sold as a non-descript Japanese maple from a vendor table at a bonsai show.

We were just having this exact same discussion on another thread. I don't know why so many people wrestle with this basic concept of horticulture.

Damn bro did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I've agreed with every point you've made but you're still chiseling.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Damn bro did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I've agreed with every point you've made but you're still chiseling.

A lot of people in the bonsai and maple community have been fooled by trees labled as the wrong cultivar. So there is a little frustration when people post and ask for a guess at what cultivar it is.

For example there is a highly renowned maple nursery in the US that has pictures of a tree labled as ‘Seigen’ but I would never buy this tree from this supplier because the pictures do not look at all like a true seigen maple. Its now understood that fake seigen maples are circulating around the US in the nursery trade and being sold as a real Seigen maple.

If someone tells you that this is kotohime just because it looks similar to kotohime, whats to stop you from selling cuttings as kotohime and saturating the market with fakes and fooling prospective buyers who actually want a kotohime?

 

[Mikecheck123]

A lot of people in the bonsai and maple community have been fooled by trees labled as the wrong cultivar. So there is a little frustration when people post and ask for a guess at what cultivar it is.

For example there is a highly renowned maple nursery in the US that has pictures of a tree labled as ‘Seigen’ but I would never buy this tree from this supplier because the pictures do not look at all like a true seigen maple. Its now understood that fake seigen maples are circulating around the US in the nursery trade and being sold as a real Seigen maple.

If someone tells you that this is kotohime just because it looks similar to kotohime, whats to stop you from selling cuttings as kotohime and saturating the market with fakes and fooling prospective buyers who actually want a kotohime?

Why is everyone treating me like this is my first tree? This is the at least the tenth different cultivar/variety of JM that I have owned over the years.

I don't get it. It's like people are mad that any cultivar at all was suggested, even when kotohime was spot on.

And it's such a waste of energy to aggressively take sides on something that is unknowable. It might be! It might not be. I don't really care. Nor do I plan on running a scam operation based on this picture id.

I was just curious. Sheesh!

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

I bought this little tree at Bill's (incredible!) garden last September during the weekend of the National Exhibition. It was labeled only as a "dwarf Japanese maple," so I was wondering if anyone could tell me more specifically what it is. It seems somewhat shishigashira-esque, but I'm not sure if that's quite right. Needless to say it was a hectic scene there, so there wasn't time to ask a lot of questions.

Now that it's getting bigger (and people keep asking ME what it is), I'd like to know more. Thanks!

View attachment 445116

I did the exact same thing . . . I bought one of those from Bill last September and, like you, I ran out of there without asking. However, I did call two days later and talked to Bill & Diane. They both told me that it is an “unnamed cultivar”.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I know what’s it’s not. It’s not a shishigashira.
It does look like my kotohime though. My leaves are smaller and more packed together but my tree is younger. Also could be environmental and care techniques.
its possible that this is seed grown from his kotohime.

 

[coh]

Kotohime? Probably not, based on what I can see in the photo (and yes, I have one and have seen Bill's up close many times).

Bill sells a lot of JM seedlings - some that he buys from growers, but he also grows them from seed he collects from the maples he has planted in his garden. So it could have kotohime as a parent, or arakawa, or another dwarf variety. It is doubtful that it is a named cultivar though it could wind up looking and/or behaving very much like one.