Bjorn Bjorholm Speaks Out On Hedge Pruning

MichaelS

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Personally, I don't like the perfection the Japanese insist on. I appreciate it, but don't like it......if that even makes sense. The things one goes through to acheive some level of perfection are not worth it to me. If you do get to that level, then ANY deviation from that level is baisically a failure. If , having one branch in the wrong place or at the wrong angle is an imperfection, then your 10-20 year endeavor is a failure. That, to me, is ludicrous. Fine, if that's what floats your boat, but leave me out of it.
Agreed.
I was having a similar ''discussion'' the other day on another forum and submitted this (below) to illustrate a parallel with modern bonsai in Japan - and elsewhere. (it was not understood)........




...........Let me quote directly from ''Wabi Sabi'' Leonard Koren, concerning the history of the tea ritual because it has breathtakingly obvious parallels with the particular subject being discussed here.....(my bold)

''A major preoccupation of organized tea factions ever since the death of Rikyu's death has been to establish their legitimacy based on their supposed direct links to his true teachings....
''In the process, PERSONAL JUDGEMENT and IMAGINATION have been pretty much wrung out of tea. Even the most MINUTE HAND GESTURES of the ritual have been RIGIDLY PRESCRIBED, ALLEGEDLY deriving unchanged from Rikyu's time.....
''Approximately one hundred years after Rikyu's death, the ''art'' of tea was repositioned into the ''way'' of tea....
'''During this transformation, wabi sabi, the CORE OF SPIRITUAL TEA, WAS REDUCED, SIMPLIFIED AND PACKAGED INTO A DEFINITIVE SET OF RULES AND SAYINGS.....
''wabi sabi was WELL ON IT'S WAY TO BECOMING IT'S OPPOSITE: SLICK, POLISHED AND GORGEOUS.''

Ring any bells?
 

ajm55555

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If Bonsai is an art, then there is no point discussing whether one form is art and another is not. Are you inspired by a tree? Then that's art for you.
Personally I like when a bonsai is a miniature version of something you can see in Nature. And I love Monet. That's it.
 

Woocash

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I wonder if a suitable analogy could be;

We went on holiday last spring up the river Thames from our mooring to Lechlade, as far as is navigable by motorised vessels. It took 2 and a bit days over a distance of 23 miles and at a maximum speed of 5mph. Had we gone by road we’d have been there in less than an hour and been able to do more while there, but we’d have missed most of the beautiful countryside, various bird species that I’d never seen before and a water vole, which most people wont get to see in a lifetime.

I’m not saying that one method is better, superior or whatnot, but is it not a question of attitude? Is the boat trip not the essence of bonsai, while the car ride is more akin to hedge pruning? Is this whole argument not simply based on semantics and cultural differences in attitudes as opposed to the better technique? Or is it simply cultural appropriation to change techniques and still call the end result the same name?

*not necessarily my views, just thinking with my fingers.
 

sorce

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But if Bjorn were going from Lechlade to your mooring point, at a speed of 6 miles per hour.... Lol!

.....

I was thinking last night, the only people to enjoy that journey is us, the folks with the scissors.

....

Rituals keep humans grounded.

Sorce
 

Adair M

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Interesting.
I have no desire to debate the subject, its useless. But maybe we can show the difference in pictures. I don't see any difference, Bjorn is a hedger, pure and simple. He may think he isn't, but he is. I will be more than happy to read those that think he isn't. Don't let me down. You guys been slippin since I be gone.

View attachment 304802View attachment 304803View attachment 304804View attachment 304805

Bjorn styled these as an apprentice in Japan.

A couple of thoughts...

One, as an apprentice, he has to style as the Master wishes.

Two, Japan’s culture is different, styles of this sort may have higher marketability d to cultural aesthetics.

Three, this tree displays Bjorn’s talent and skills. It’s not easy to make something like this happen. (Whether you like it it not.). In Japan, there is an appreciation of achieving something that is difficult to do, even if it’s “not natural”. Things like dinner plate nebari and extreme sumo styles with no trunk scars come to mind. They’re hard to do. Maybe they look artificial, but they’re admired for the extreme craftsmanship and attention to detail that’s require to make them happen.

<Aside> I bought some koi today, and I mentioned that he doesn’t stock “butterfly”, or long finned koi. He said that’s because the Japanese consider that “they’re easy to do”. The other breeds are the result of careful, generation after generation selective breeding, and even then, the good ones are “hard to do”.

That reminded me of John Kennedy’s speech when he announced we were going to the Moon. “We are going to the Moon because it is hard”. <end aside>

Final thought...

The trees Bjorn styled are not to my taste. Yet, I have to admire the skill it took to make them. I couldn’t do it. I’m sure that if he wanted, he could style them much softer and/or into a more naturalistic style.
 

MichaelS

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That reminded me of John Kennedy’s speech when he announced we were going to the Moon. “We are going to the Moon because it is hard”. <end aside>

All that may be true Adair but if the motivation is difficulty, then what does that say to you?
To just come up with something like ''everyone is free to do whatever they like'' is not only obvious but contributes nothing to the evolution of the concept of bonsai. Japan has hit a dead end - in general terms but I'm sure there are plenty there who don't like what it has become. Just like the works of Kimura were (perhaps still are) considered monstrosities to many. It's ok to swim against the tide and it's vital that mistakes are made. Fence sitters never really achieve anything.
 

Dzhokar

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Whether you consider bonsai an art or a craft, it can have many styles. And there are many techniques that are used to achieve the end product.

In the case of traditional Japanese bonsai, there are a series of 'best known practices' that have been developed over centuries. In order to improve upon those techniques you first have to learn the accepted ones as exactly as possible. Once that is achieved, and proven, then you can deviate from the plan and experiment. If your deviation achieves a superior product or gains in efficiency then that new modified technique is adopted by the community. This is how tradition is shaped and evolves in Japan.

In western culture, everyone wants to think they are special and unique. And this reflects in the incorporation of bonsai as a hobby. As westerners, we also want quick results. We want 'this to look like something before I die'. So we develop techniques to make that happen. i.e. growing in the ground then trunk chopping and accepting that there is going to be a huge scar and even lauding it as an attribute. Not to say that there is anything wrong with that. But to say that there is something wrong with the Japanese way is plain arrogance.

And just to comment on Hakuryuu, which is the tree Bjorn is pictured with above. He does have a vlog about why it was styled in that precise manner. And it is because that style sells more easily in the Japanese market. I think it actually looked better before he styled it, but that's neither here nor there.
 

Woocash

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But if Bjorn were going from Lechlade to your mooring point, at a speed of 6 miles per hour...
Then the mooring had better be available by the time we get back!

...

or are rituals just a sign of a lack of imagination?
 

Adair M

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All that may be true Adair but if the motivation is difficulty, then what does that say to you?
To just come up with something like ''everyone is free to do whatever they like'' is not only obvious but contributes nothing to the evolution of the concept of bonsai. Japan has hit a dead end - in general terms but I'm sure there are plenty there who don't like what it has become. Just like the works of Kimura were (perhaps still are) considered monstrosities to many. It's ok to swim against the tide and it's vital that mistakes are made. Fence sitters never really achieve anything.
There’s no requirement to style every tree in the same manner. If someone wants to have a super sumo, that doesn’t mean every tree has to be a super sumo.
 

MichaelS

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Dzhokar, post: 747629, member: 25587"]
But to say that there is something wrong with the Japanese way is plain arrogance.

Ok, so then you would have to call many Japanese practitioners who look at Western bonsai arrogant too because they often say there is ''something wrong'' with it.
It has nothing to do with arrogance, it is about expressing one's view and you cannot do that without comparing one idea with the other.

[/QUOTE]
In the case of traditional Japanese bonsai, there are a series of 'best known practices' that have been developed over centuries. In order to improve upon those techniques you first have to learn the accepted ones as exactly as possible. Once that is achieved, and proven, then you can deviate from the plan and experiment. If your deviation achieves a superior product or gains in efficiency then that new modified technique is adopted by the community. This is how tradition is shaped and evolves in Japan.

The ''shaping of tradition'' you speak of has led to (and I speak mainly - but not only - of the way conifers are shaped in the modern era) overly refined, polished and flawless, sculpture-like, over manipulated, manicured trees with the main emphasis is on the trunk and where the canopies are interchangeable.........meaning the canopies are all saying the same thing.

mouldetc.JPG






Trees which are missing the very ingredient which attracted people to growing trees in pots in the first place.

moldetc.JPG

And they are quotes from Japanese who are by nature extremely diplomatic and measured as to what they say in public. But to deny that the modern bonsai convention is stuck in a loop is to deny reality. That is not to say anything of beauty, desirability or quality inherent in any particular tree.
 

MichaelS

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There’s no requirement to style every tree in the same manner. If someone wants to have a super sumo, that doesn’t mean every tree has to be a super sumo.
There are never requirements in art or craft. But there certainly is peer pressure, expectations, as well as the robotic following brought about by the inability or refusal to look from a different perspective.
 

Adair M

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There are never requirements in art or craft. But there certainly is peer pressure, expectations, as well as the robotic following brought about by the inability or refusal to look from a different perspective.
And professional artists have to eat. Sometimes they produce work that is marketable. Hobbyists who don’t depend upon selling their wares for a living are free to take artistic risks. Professionals, not so much.
 

Dzhokar

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Ok, so then you would have to call many Japanese practitioners who look at Western bonsai arrogant too because they often say there is ''something wrong'' with it.
It has nothing to do with arrogance, it is about expressing one's view and you cannot do that without comparing one idea with the other.

Yes, that would be arrogance also. But arrogance born from indoctrination. I can understand and forgive the indignance of someone who has dedicated their lives to perfecting Japanese techniques. I may not agree with their opinion, but can certainly understand it.

The rest of your post speaks to style which is a personal matter. (and imo all of those trees are beautiful)
 

MichaelS

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......indoctrination.

........style which is a personal matter.

And the point is........the style is no longer a personal matter. It is has become a product of indoctrination.
We are not talking technique.
 

Dzhokar

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I am talking about technique and you are responding to technique... there is no point in discussing style. If you say one style has less value than another, it is purely a personal value judgement.
The value of a technique can be quantified. Appreciation of style is subjective and cannot. You're using style as a strawman.
 

MichaelS

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I am talking about technique and you are responding to technique... there is no point in discussing style. If you say one style has less value than another, it is purely a personal value judgement.
The value of a technique can be quantified. Appreciation of style is subjective and cannot. You're using style as a strawman.
Ok, point taken. But when you talk of a superior product....
If your deviation achieves a superior product......... then that new modified technique is adopted by the community. This is how tradition is shaped and evolves in Japan.
....you are talking about a result (product) brought about by method. Your ''superior product'' is also subjective. So are the ''best known practices'' In fact the two are not really separable as can be seen when we follow many of the Japanese techniques - especially the more modern ones, the result is the above ''style'' in post 331. For eg; using certain techniques such wiring branches down early, wiring in general, putting s bends in seedlings, concentrating on root flare, pruning cuts flush to the trunk, pruning to induce massive taper. The only techniques not related to style are ramification techniques.
In other words, if we want a different product, we often have to change our technique.
 

Dzhokar

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Ok, I get where you're coming from(I think). You're saying that certain techniques are ingrained in the traditional Japanese style of bonsai.
But style is still different from the techniques used to achieve that style. And those techniques can be used to achieve other styles.
When I said 'product' I was talking within the Japanese framework. It would probably be more accurate to say 'result' of a particular technique. And sure you can argue semantics, but I'm not down for those games.

Final note on my part is that we are blending new techniques developed for western practitioners with older techniques refined over generations in Japan.
I think we all pick and choose which techniques are going to work for what we want to accomplish, and that's cool in my book.
I don't think it's cool to say centuries of development has resulted in a dead end and should be discarded as worthless(yep, I totally exaggerated that).

Anyway, I don't think we really disagree on much.... we're going to use the techniques that we think will make a tree in a pot look how we want it to.

: end transmission :
 

markyscott

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And professional artists have to eat. Sometimes they produce work that is marketable. Hobbyists who don’t depend upon selling their wares for a living are free to take artistic risks. Professionals, not so much.

Life is short. You should spend as much time as possible arguing politics and artistic preferences with strangers on the internet.
 
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