Black Pine Back Budding

[badabing888]

Hi Guys,

It would be great if someone could answer was in which to help induce back budding on a black pine since it seems to be such an asked question.

I have what would be about a 5 year old JBP the first main branch is the pic below



as you can see there is a fair bit of empty space between the trunk and first needles

I've done the initial styling and fed quite heavily and its begun to back bud



As you can see back buds are just starting to form

So the question is what would be best to do in this situation to help continue inducing back budding? should it be cut back further to the first set of branch's that form the Y or just feed and let it go to see if the current back budding continues ?

Thanks

Dan

 

[HumbleTrees]

watch and re-watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

 

[Poink88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

Yes...take notes and adjust to your climate timing wise (being down south)!

 

[Adair M]

Here's my take on that branch: It does indeed appear you are getting some backbudding from dormant needle buds. Those appear to be just behind the woody first fork. They may or may not develop, but even if they do, they will be too close to the existing woody branches to be of any use.
Where you need back budding is about an inch or so closer to the trunk. And, from what I saw in your picture, you're not going to get any. Here's why:

Every JBP candle has a barren section (we call it "the neck") between where it emerges from the previous year's growth, and the first set of needles. The neck can be any distance, but it's usually an inch or two for candles that aren't "managed" using bonsai techniques. The stronger the candle, the longer the neck.

The neck will have scaly immature bark that look like they could bud, but they don't have buds. These scales are usually longer than the scales that are on the twig where needles had been.

So, judging from the photo, there is "neck" between the trunk and where the first tiny buds are popping. Which means no back budding in that area.

Sorry to bring you the bad news.

So, what to do?

Graft!

Fortunately, you want your first secondary branch to go to the back. So grafting on a scion on the back where you want it will be fairly easy, and the scar will be in the back, which will grow over in a couple years anyway.

One more thing: There are two kinds of buds on JPB that can backbud. Dormant adventitious buds, and dormant needle buds. Needle buds are usually very weak, and even when they pop they often don't survive. Dormant adventitious buds are what we want to stimulate. These are the buds that lie at the base of every spring candle. They are usually suppressed by the vigorous spring candle, but they can grow nicely if the spring candle is removed in summer. These are the ones that grow when we "decandle". Dormant adventitious buds can be induced to pop on old wood if the branch is vigorous, and then cut back. The jolt of suddenly removing the auxin of the vigorous growth which was suppressing the buds will awaken them, and the tree should bud back.

This sudden jolt of a reasonably hard cutback works better than a light trim on stimulating back budding. Since you can't do hard cutbacks that often, it's usually a once a decade thing. Cut back hard. If you get the backbudding you want, great! Otherwise, it's grafting time.

My apologies if this is "too much information"! LOL!

Good luck with your tree!

 

[Adair M]

You didn't ask, but it appears it's time to take that aluminum wire off. It's cutting in.

Next time, wire with copper. It works better. (That subject, will cause MAJOR flames!)

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi Guys,

It would be great if someone could answer was in which to help induce back budding on a black pine since it seems to be such an asked question.

I have what would be about a 5 year old JBP the first main branch is the pic below

View attachment 46975

as you can see there is a fair bit of empty space between the trunk and first needles

I've done the initial styling and fed quite heavily and its begun to back bud

View attachment 46976

As you can see back buds are just starting to form

So the question is what would be best to do in this situation to help continue inducing back budding? should it be cut back further to the first set of branch's that form the Y or just feed and let it go to see if the current back budding continues ?

Thanks

Dan

Where do you want to induce back budding? On the same branch you have the wire, which should come off, or somewhere else on the trunk.

 

[nathanbs]

You didn't ask, but it appears it's time to take that aluminum wire off. It's cutting in.

Next time, wire with copper. It works better. (That subject, will cause MAJOR flames!)

For the record I use both types and so does my sensei, my question for you is do you use copper for everything you do?

 

[Eric Group]

You didn't ask, but it appears it's time to take that aluminum wire off. It's cutting in.

Next time, wire with copper. It works better. (That subject, will cause MAJOR flames!)

What is the benefit of copper exactly then in your opinion? Not disagreeing with you or doubting you, just asking...

 

[nathanbs]

The advantage of copper is a greater holding power for a smaller gauge wire, so when wiring a tree that is to be exhibited this is a must. The disadvantages are cost, harder to use as it's stiffer and gets work hardened very quickly, in cases of training raw material where lots of growth is expected the smaller gauge wire can cut in faster.

 

[Adair M]

I don't really want to hi-jack this thread with the copper vs aluminum discussion. I use copper for all conifers. I use aluminum for deciduous, but I only wire them for non-lignified tender growth. It only stays on for a few weeks. And, I use aluminum to wire trees into pots.

Properly annealed copper is easy to work with. The two best vendors of annealed copper wire are Jim Gremel and Julian Adams. I've used both. Both are excellent. I prefer Gremel's. It's really soft.

But, let's try to keep this thread focused on the backbudding, or lack of it.

My opinion is the wire should be removed from the branch, and early this spring (or late this winter) a back secondary branch be grafted into position. About halfway between the trunk and the first fork. Do not repot if you're grafting.

Are you decandling? Putting the JBP into the annual decandling program will induce backbudding as well as shortening internodes and increasing twig density.

 

[Adair M]

Looking carefully at the OP's second photo, there are three wraps of wire. It would appear that the section of branch between the second (middle) and third wrap (right) are where the needles began a couple years ago. The sections to the left are "neck", are barren, and will not back bud. Grafting is indicated.

About the wire, and wiring: It looks like the OP used a lot of wire below the branch to anchor, then came to the branch from above, and wired it out. From the amount of cutting in, it looks to have been done at least one growing season ago.

The wire should have come up to the branch from below rather than from the top. Better wiring technique. And there should have been some subtle curve(s) placed into the branch when it was wired. Up, down, and side to side.) There's wire there, but the branch is pretty straight. I'm assuming the wire was used to bend the branch down. If copper had been used, it would have been strong enough to not only bend it down, but movement could have been induced as well. Cool thing about copper, when you style, you style by bending the wire, not the branch! Using a pair of jin plyers, you can grab the wire and twist the wire a little, and the branch will bend, and the copper is strong enough to hold. Watch some of Grahm Potter's videos on You Tube. He does it a lot.

If I had wired it, I wouldn't have started the wire from the lower trunk, I probably would have wired two branches. We don't have a picture of the entire tree, so it's hard to see where the other end of the wire should go. But, I try not to wrap wire around the trunk if the trunk isn't getting bent. Wire might have to go around the trunk when wiring two branches, but I try to minimize the wire on the trunk as much as possible.

 

[sikadelic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

Great lecture for someone like myself who is just starting out with only a year of experience. Oh how I wish I had access to great clubs to get more of this stuff. Thanks for posting!

 

[QuintinBonsai]

In the video link Ryan says that decandling to get backbudding is wrong. (At 12:11 into the video) I've watched this several times, and I'm not sure why, but I find it to be confusing.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

In the video link Ryan says that decandling to get backbudding is wrong. (At 12:11 into the video) I've watched this several times, and I'm not sure why, but I find it to be confusing.

he says if y9ou want backbudding you let the tree grow and grow.... he delineates on this in the second lecture of white pines. He is talking about back budding in white pines and he talks about decandling for them and compares that to black pines. that is where you will find this info.

the way I understood it was feed heavy and do not decandle until very late in the season after the candles have opened and hardedned and collected all that good energy (energy positive state) then snip them off and you should get back buds that will be available next year.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, that is the "cutting back" I referred to.

JBP have old dormant buds on old wood. Actively growing tip produce a hormone, auxin, that suppresses them from growing. If the active growing tip is removed (say by a windstorm) the flow of auxin from that tip is no longer there. Without the auxin, the old dormant buds can start to grow. Creating what we are calling "backbudding".

It is the sudden cessation of the flow of auxin that stimulates the old dormant buds. The greater the "jolt" from heavy auxin to no auxin, the stronger the backbudding reflex.

Decandling produces a mild "jolt". Enough to stimulate the adventitious buds at the base of the current year spring candles. Sometimes some backbudding, too. But the needles that were kept on still provide some auxin, and the needles that were removed by the decandling were immature, so it's a mild jolt.

If, however, the twigs are left to mature a little longer so they are fully producing auxin, and THEN removed, it produces a bigger "jolt" from heavy auxin production to none. So back budding is stronger.

Of course, we all know that when we cut back, we have to leave some green on the branch or else it will die.

 

[badabing888]

wow thanks for the information.

for some reason it didn't notify me that people had replied.

yeps i watched ryan neil's video multiple times

@adair thanks for the information you would be correct i'm trying to get it to back bud about and inch closer to the trunk or else there is a long barren stretch between the trunk and first set of needles. So in your opinion its a lost cause? it's still quite a young pine i was hoping i would get lucky....grating could be an option i was hoping to get a branch either side i.e. one to the rear and one to the front

agreed on taking the wire off i bought this already wired a few months ago for a steal and it has really powered on the growth i was planning on doing this this weekend as i finally have some time. I also find copper much better it simply holds its shape much better, i find alum doesn't hold as well part of that is most likely my skill level but i find it easier to work with.

@vance thanks for the reply as always, i was looking to get back budding on the branch with wire not the trunk

Regards

Daniel

 

[bonsai barry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

I've taken notes on this video with time indicators where it is located within the video. If any wants a copy, send me a PM and I can email them to you.

 

[Adair M]

No, it's not a lost cause at all! It will not back bud where you want it, but you can graft on branches there.

Actually, it's the better way to go. Back budding, even on an area that CAN backbud is iffy. You may or may not get a backbud where you want it. Grafting will. Sure, not every graft takes, but if done correctly, most should, and even then, you can re-graft.

A real eye opener for me about grafting was my first Intensive class at Boon's. Walking around his garden he has dozens of incredible trees. And, when I asked about them, he would say things like, "Oh, this tree only has two branches." I'd go, "What???" (It was a juniper.) And Boon would point out that it was a California juniper, but had Kishu grafted on to the trunk, and there were only two grafts. And the Kishu was wired all over. He had grafted it 10 years ago, and unless he told you (or you were experienced in looking for it) you would never know.

His JBP had branches exactly where you would want them. That's because if the tree didn't have one where it was needed, he'd graft one on.

So, after training my eye to look for them, I wandered around his garden and saw many trees "in progress" where he was grafting on new foliage, or adding branches.

So, why hope for "luck" when with just a little practice, you too can ensure that you will always have branches where you want? Now, when you go to select stock, choose based upon the most important component - the trunk and nebari - confident that if you need to add a branch here or there, you can.

So, learn to graft.

By the way, the tree that's my avatar needs a graft or two on a branch exactly like yours does. It won't get it this year. It's at Boon's, and I'm working it up to be shown at the 2015 BIB show next January in 2015. After the show, it will be time for major cutbacks to regenerate the tree. And I'll graft on some more secondary branches. Then, it might be ready to show again in 2018.

When you make your grafts, stagger them. First to the back, the next towards the front, if you want to make two.

Good luck!

 

[Vance Wood]

wow thanks for the information.

for some reason it didn't notify me that people had replied.

yeps i watched ryan neil's video multiple times

@adair thanks for the information you would be correct i'm trying to get it to back bud about and inch closer to the trunk or else there is a long barren stretch between the trunk and first set of needles. So in your opinion its a lost cause? it's still quite a young pine i was hoping i would get lucky....grating could be an option i was hoping to get a branch either side i.e. one to the rear and one to the front

agreed on taking the wire off i bought this already wired a few months ago for a steal and it has really powered on the growth i was planning on doing this this weekend as i finally have some time. I also find copper much better it simply holds its shape much better, i find alum doesn't hold as well part of that is most likely my skill level but i find it easier to work with.

@vance thanks for the reply as always, i was looking to get back budding on the branch with wire not the trunk

Regards

Daniel

Just to be clear, because we have a tendency around here to be unclear on occasion, and I have an annoying tendency to misunderstand what people are saying. Is it your desire to use the one branch, shown in your photographs, as the new trunk of the tree? This is something you should think about, or are you looking to preserve all of the tree this branch emanates from? I may have missed something, wouldn't be the first time, and I am not looking to cause a fire storm ending in how stupid I am, but I am not sure what your intentions are. Could you please clarify?

 

[badabing888]

@ adair thanks for the reply grafting may be the way to go it would be a good first practice at least. As its most likely out of the season to try such a thing i can wait and see how it goes i may get lucky and see some back budding and there is always that option in the bank! I'd still like to try get it to back bud even if its just for an attempt or my stupidity!

@ Vance no this is the first major branch and lowest, the 2nd branch and 3rd branches are in place before the trunk chop and formation of the new leader which is in place. id take a pic but its midnight here. So basically trying to get it to back bud on the first major branch but closer to the trunk to help fill in the space.

i removed the wire late this afternoon and it hadn't bit in too badly in a few weeks any marks wont be visible

Dan