Black Pine Back Budding

Adair M

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I'll repeat this one more time...

The area where you want back buds is barren. No buds there. You won't get "lucky".

If you want branches there, grafting is the only option.

Grafting is not hard to do. You do need a really, really sharp knife.

Search around on YouTube. Ryan Neil also demonstrates how to graft JBP.
 

Neli

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How will You go about it if you are growing your own pine...so You avoid grafting? Start ramification early, and use escape branches?
 

Jason_mazzy

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Can anyone clear this section up for me? I'm not certain about the node thing ESPECIALLY the part I will bold: P

Pruning Below or Between Nodes
Pruning between nodes gives a different response, and in general produces atypical, juvenile growth. Juvenile growth arises not from a dormant bud at the node, but from an adventitious bud along the internode at the base of a needle. The color is typically bluer, the needles finer, stem slightly wavy and thin. After a year of two (after the needles are gone) this juvenile growth will be indistinguishable from stems of mature growth.
This kind of pruning can be thought of as 'forcing growth', or forcing the stem to back bud. It is pretty reliable as long as the needles are still present on the remaining stem section. Removing the node and its terminal buds removes the flow of auxin that keeps the adventitious buds dormant. This releases the buds at the base of the needles, and often it releases almost ALL of them, so a typical response is produce a 'broom like' effect with very many shoots just below the cut, one for each needle.

This kind of pruning can be used when you have branch or branch section in just the right spot, but the internodal distance is too great. To save and use the branch you have to make a bud break somewhere in the middle so you can prune it back. The object in training any of the branches of a black pine is to produce a series of forked branches with the length of each fork DIMINISHING as they proceed toward the end of the branch. This is usually accomplished by timing the secondary candles as explained above. However, sometimes you blow it, or you acquire a pine with branches in the right position, but with internodes are too long, particularly the first internode.

If there are still needles on the section you want to stimulate, simply cut the branch off just before the node (whorl) at the end of this section. I usually do this in late winter, but I don't think the timing is all that important. This is another fuzzy area for me, and I will probably know the answer in another five years. I did learn one new trick though. A colleague of mine prunes in late winter as I do, but doesn't prune the needles until later, usually in July. Removing the tips of the needles further reduces the auxin flow and will help in releasing the adventitious buds. It certainly works for him, he creates branch stubs with little fuzz balls at the end of them after one year. So cut the needles in half on the remaining branch stub in summer. New buds will be evident by fall.

If the section you want to stimulate doesn't not have needles (older wood) you cannot use the above procedure. Conifers are very sensitive to the hormone feedback system between the roots and the branches. I think this partly due to the long lag time (much longer than deciduous plants) for bud break. Strongly growing branches send the hormone auxin to the roots (actually specific roots) which stimulates those roots to increase their growth to support the new foliage. Roots thus stimulated send more of the hormone cytokinin to the branch to stimulate stronger branch and foliage growth. If the roots fail to receive the auxin signal which is produced by the terminal buds and foliage, they will cut off the cytokinins and eventually wall off the area causing the branch to die.

This is what we call 'keeping a sap line' in conifers. It is true of some other plants as well, but is critical for conifers. That is why you hear the warning about always leaving some foliage at the end of each branch when pruning pines and junipers.

So what do you do to stimulate buds in older wood where the needles have long since fallen? You can start 'forcing' the growth back by starting farther up the tree, or farther out on the limb. Prune just ahead of a node that DOES have needles left on it. This will stimulate bud breaks before it. In addition it will often produce a very few adventitious breaks on the older wood in the internodes (or nodes) in the needleless sections. Once these buds break, be very careful with them, they will be extremely fragile, and it probably won't happen twice. Let them grow undisturbed for two years, then begin forcing growth on them. After a few more years, you may be able to force growth back even farther by hard pruning of these stems.


The key to a strong bud breaking response is to have a very vigorously growing plant. There must be a strong root system and strong upper growth as well. Before doing any of this work, invigorate the plant by repotting it, or planting it in the ground, giving it optimum water and sunlight, and fertilize it adequately. Alternate heavy pruning years with light pruning years to allow the plant to 'pump up'.
 
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Adair M

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Jason,

I would refer to the buds that grow between the needles as "needle buds". You called them "adventitious buds". The term "adventitious buds" generally refers to the buds that lie at the base of the spring candles. These are the ones we stimulate when we decandle in mid summer.

The technique you describe of cutting back to somewhere within last year's candle where needles still remain stimulates needle buds to grow.

I'm not going to say that the technique does not work. It does. But I prefer to stimulate adventitious buds if possible. And these would probably be farther back on the branch closer to the trunk.

The Original Poster was trying to get backbudding on old wood close to the trunk. In my opinion, based on the photos he presented, there are neither adventitious buds nor needle buds in that area, so I don't think any technique will induce the tree to back bud there. The only way is grafting.
 

thumblessprimate1

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A few years back I've seen back budding at the base of pine trunk approximately 8-10 yo; a very tall pine where no needles or even branches existed. The trunk was about 3-4 inches. It was grown at a nursery. All they do is feed, water, chop shear off the top when it gets too high. It appeared to only happen on one of the pines there. Someone out there has got to know how to get relatively older pine wood to bud like that.
 

Adair M

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The base of the pine trunk was once a candle. Those were old adventitious buds.

Usually, once a pine develops flakey bark, no more back budding.

EXCEPT: sometimes when the flakey bark becomes plates, and the plates fissure, that can expose the cambium to the sun and backbuding occurs. You see it in old pines by the side of the road.

We ca somewhat simulated that effect. By wiring branches flat, creating pads. Doing this exposes more of the woody parts of the branch to the sun, stimulating back budding. Wiring and bending may also create micro racks in the bark, allowing sunlight in. Whatever the mechinism is, wiring and opening up the foliage stimulates backbuding.
 

Neli

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I did something similar today...need to sort out the pictures and will post for you. Maybe it can help you...
 

Neli

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As you can see this pine was not decandled last year.
10351688_10201548648390108_1144324965398123503_n.jpg

You can see the old set of needles, neck of the old candle and the new candle after that.
10264481_10201548650830169_4236926038555248626_n.jpg

notice that I did not decandle it, but cut it back to last year's needles so I removed two seasons of growth...I need branching closer to the trunk.
10169454_10201548654950272_1504280915302988395_n.jpg

Here with red is marked where you need to cut to decandle...and with blue the needles I would remove later.
10364026_10201548659150377_8999660455393006539_n.jpg

Remember if this nearer to the trunk needles drop you will not be able to cut back your branch to create ramification. The branch with two red lines shows where to cut for normal decandling and a cut back to old needles.
10342822_10201548661670440_7688071090553025364_n.jpg
 
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Neli

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After cut back and wiring only 4 branches this is how it looks.
10363635_10201548669590638_3241818111260536648_n.jpg
 

Jason_mazzy

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So th bold section is saying let the candles harden off and then cut leaving a few needle pairs?
 

Jason_mazzy

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I am confused about one thing. It was my understanding with pines that you never cut back past one years growth or you will likely lose the branch.

Are you saying that you can cut back to 3 year needles on a branch?
 

Adair M

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As long as there are healthy needles.

Generally speaking, you can only do it once.
 

Jason_mazzy

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interesting. so I can cut back this years new growth and last years growth

or

I can cut this year new growth last year branch and past the two year needles to where the oldest needles that will fall this season are?
 
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Dav4

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interesting. so I can cut back this years new growth and last years growth

or

I can cut this year new growth last year branch and past the two year needles to wear the oldest needles that will fall this season are?

The younger the needle, the more vigorous and the more likely you'll get adventitious buds to pop. With a cutback to 3 year old needles only, it would be a crapshoot between budding back and losing the branch.
 

Jason_mazzy

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adair
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neli

when would you do this more major cutback?

I do normal candle pruning around july 4th.

wait longer for a more major cutback or earlier?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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If you cut back now, leaving only a few needles on the branch in question, and the tree is vigorous, you can expect it to bud back, at the cut, and likely between needles as well.
 

Jason_mazzy

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BVF:

ok so general candle cutting time I can make the hard cut into last years needles and the branches will not die?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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BVF:

ok so general candle cutting time I can make the hard cut into last years needles and the branches will not die?

Generally speaking, yes...though I'd do it sooner; like late March-now. Feed well, much sun, and it should pop back pretty hard if it's healthy to start with. Mine sure do.
 
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