Black pine from seed

Graydon

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Graydon,

I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm
I'm not a subscriber. Our club has a subscription and perhaps the "lifetime club librarian and keeper of all good bonsai books" may be willing to let me borrow the most recent issue until I get my azalea book back - hint hint...

I was going to photo them today but I got sidetracked potting several (64) seedling JBP that came in. I'll shoot those as well. We are getting some pretty good seedlings from a north Florida tree liner grower. The last 100 we got looked so good we had to get more. Now I need more space.

My Pine book is getting ragged and a copy I got someone else has fallen apart. I'll contact them about replacements next week - thanks for the tip!
 

Gnome

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Rlist & Jason,

Thanks for the heads up. I contacted Stone Lantern via E-Mail and have received a speedy reply. I am expecting a new copy soon.

Norm
 

Shrimpaku

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I might have to go buy some seeds. I am concerned how long it takes to grow into bonsai. Should I be thinking five years? 10 years?
 

Graydon

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I might have to go buy some seeds. I am concerned how long it takes to grow into bonsai. Should I be thinking five years? 10 years?
Pines from seed are more about the proper path than the destination. To me it's about having the opportunity to do things right that most of the material out there did not have done very well. Examples are nebari and branch placement. Throw in movement as well. I think I get more enjoyment from the development side than the final tree in a pot side.

10 years for smaller pines perhaps. The Stone Lantern book references one grower having super results in less than 10 years but we have no idea how long it took for that grower to work out all of the kinks.

You are also able to throw a larger net with seeds, meaning a few bucks and some time you catch 200 plants. From those 200 seedlings you weed out 20 - 50 with potential. Over the next few years you again weed out the not so good ones and perhaps wind up with 10 real good trees in development.

Don't want to go the seed route? Consider using liners or seedlings. That will get you a 2 year jump on things and at the point you get them it's still not too late to correct for nebari issues, low branches and movement. NOW is the time to try to get seedlings and pot them up. Bare-root shipping is happening and the season is right.

I think that when I am too old to bother with this stuff someone will get a bunch of pines just starting to have potential.
 

Brent

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I'll second what Graydon said and throw in a little more. You can start off on the left foot even with seedlings. I start THOUSANDS of seedlings of different species every year, but I buy my black pine seedlings. I do this because I can get them for about twenty five cents each and they are better than anything I can do in the nursery. I buy one year old field grown seedlings (planted as seeds in an open field). Because of the sunlight and exposure these seedlings are short, dense, and compact, with all their first node branching still extant. MY pine seedlings are leggy pitiful things. Because of my climate, I can't duplicate what they can do in Oregon, and at the price, why even bother? As I just posted on a Bonsaisite post, be careful not to be pennywise and pound foolish.

You can see the 1-0 seedlings that I buy in the blog below in the post "Where it all begins, these are very similar to the ones that Graydon gets.

And Graydon, if you get ten trees out of 200, I salute you. I got one tree out of 100 starting with one gallon plants, but then I did have to invent the wheel twenty years.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurserymany.typepad.com
 

Graydon

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Graydon,

I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm
Here's a couple of shots of the cut and uncut seedlings. Sorry the photos are not great, I'm trying to save server space etc.

First is my pitiful grafting bench where I keep the grafted pines in as much shade as I can. I have the flat of cut ones here. They get misted a few times a day to keep them sufficiently wet.

Second is the flat of cut ones. All seem to be well. Third and fourth are random cut ones showing root development.

Last is the flats of uncut ones. They would have been cut but I missed the timing and the stems started to lignify so... perhaps next time. If our weather seems to stay as warm as it has been I may try cutting a few of these.
 

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Bonsai Nut

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I do this because I can get them for about twenty five cents each
Can you share your source? That seems like a decent price...
 

Gnome

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Graydon,

Thanks for the pictures. I found the one showing the root pruned seedling interesting as I did not up-root any of mine just to check them out. How long do you intend to leave them in the first pots?

By the way, I received my fresh copy of the Pines book today.

Norm
 

Bonsai Nut

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Thanks Brent for the link. I'll definitely check it out. What is the "2-0" versus "1-0" nomenclature?

I got my 500 black pine seeds today, so into the fridge they go! I'll plant late February. I think it is warm enough then in Southern Cal.
 

Graydon

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Graydon,

Thanks for the pictures. I found the one showing the root pruned seedling interesting as I did not up-root any of mine just to check them out. How long do you intend to leave them in the first pots?

By the way, I received my fresh copy of the Pines book today.

Norm
I'm a curious bugger, can't resist seeing the magic even if that means some die. They are in a coarse sand and small akadama so they slipped out easily after I shook the container around a bit. To replant I dumped some of the soil in my hand, set the seedling and backfilled. They should stay in those small pots at least until this time next year as I want as close to full colonization of roots before I pot up to 8" bulb pans or colanders.

I gotta email about my pine book. Did you just email the main stone lantern address? I have no idea where my receipt is, do they need proof of purchase?
 

Gnome

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Graydon,

I contacted them at "contact@stonelantern.com". By way of proof I provided a jpeg attachment showing my dismembered book.

B.N.

The numbers refer to how many years that the seedlings have spent in the seedling bed and how many in the transplant bed, respectively.

Norm
 

t.scope

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hi, looks nice place here!
i add my two cents: i start pine seedlings, despite brent's articles :rolleyes: and according the articles mentioned in the begining of this tread, for 2-3 years now, pinus halepensis (the most drough-alkaline tolerant pine) seeds from cones that i colect (easiest around), starting in pure vermiculite, repoting spring in a mix of pumice 5-8mm (70%) with some vermiculite, pine bark, and surface soil from the pine forest. i dont dare to cut roots so much but at repoting i manage them, cuting the long of them as they look to spread by itselfs, using vance wood type pots (not colanders but plastik pots with a lot of holes at them). i concider it an experiment as the survival rate isn't so big (say 60% ?) and i cannot provide best conditions yet, but it has fun and as said before you have some starters that you can handle from early stages of development. besides i experienced many things about pines. pics coming soon, in an a more accurate article about halepensis with some nursery plants and yamadori, thanks to brent.
keep good job here, thanks, criss
 

Bonsai Nut

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Yeah, they're a little bigger, but they aren't bonsai yet :)
 

JTGJr25

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Yea Norm I'm interested to see. I think you should shoot for shohin with these so you can enjoy them before your time is up ;). Would be good to here from you.


Tom
 

Gnome

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mapleman77,

OK, here you go. Of the remaining trees about half were potted up this year. I had intended to do them all but the Dollar store did not have enough colanders on hand and I would have probably been short on medium anyway, so I only did the larger ones. The ones that were lagging behind were left in the pond baskets that they have been in since the beginning of their second summer in 2007. I'll have to be sure to be better prepared next year.

Something of interest though, the ones that were not moved this year are ahead of the ones that were transplanted. The candles on the smaller group are coming along nicely but the other group is just beginning to show some movement.

The smaller one here had its terminal bud removed by some critter a few years back, I think it may work out in the long run though.

Tom,

I think you should shoot for shohin with these so you can enjoy them before your time is up ;)
Thanks for your concern but I'm not ready to go on the cart just yet.:p

Norm
 

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