Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

[markyscott]

@markyscott i just want to say this thread is awesome and helped me a ton. I just want to share a few things and maybe I had a few question, if thats ok?

long story short - out of 15 root pruned pine I had 2 left.. I pulled this one out to see what it looked like (it was real lose in the pot) and i see black roots. I'm assuming that's not good? It really hasn't grown at all since I root pruned it. I probably watered it too much because I was afraid it would dry out. I put it in some new bonsai soil and placed it in the shade. Hopefully it will make it.
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This next part is pretty interesting. I separated 4 seedlings and moved them to 10 hours a day of tropical sun. I didn't water them. All they got was good ole florida rain. The rest were getting 3 to 4 hours and then bright shade. The next two pictures below are the ones getting 3 to 4 hours of sun. Slightly thin, lots of growth - kind of flimsy to the touch some almost laying on their sides.

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These next two pics are the 10 hours a day of tropical sun. Trunks are super thick, they dont even budge. They are super firm in the pot but not nearly as much growth if any at all. They just seem like an over all better tree. They are so tough I bet you could wire those two right now! LOL. I just doesn't seem like the root structure (if thats whats holding them tight in that pot) is as good as these full sun trees but they seem to grow better or at least have more growth.

None of these have been root pruned, btw.

I recently gave both sets of trees fish emulsion so maybe that will kick start the tough ones. Who knows. I just find it interesting that the 4 getting all that sun aren't growing up but just getting thicker.

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This is the new batch: (straight bonsai mix this time) I root pruned 5 of them today and Ill probably do the rest tomorrow.
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Thanks again for this awesome thread!

I’m glad you’ve got something out of it. The roots on your seedling look ok to me, but there hasn’t been as much growth as I would have expected in the Florida sun and heat. Have you been fertilizing?

Scott

 

[Paul F.]

I’m glad you’ve got something out of it. The roots on your seedling look ok to me, but there hasn’t been as much growth as I would have expected in the Florida sun and heat. Have you been fertilizing?

Scott

I literally just started fertilizing a few days ago with fish emulsion. I was afraid to do it any earlier. I dont know why. Which fert do you use?
About the roots, I thought they would be white and not so dark. I saw a picture of one a ways back or these beautiful healthy looking white roots all spread out after the root prune. They were thicker too but hey, Im glad mine roots are fine! At least Ill have two root pruned JBP's.

Thanks!!

 

[markyscott]

I literally just started fertilizing a few days ago with fish emulsion. I was afraid to do it any earlier. I dont know why. Which fert do you use?
About the roots, I thought they would be white and not so dark. I saw a picture of one a ways back or these beautiful healthy looking white roots all spread out after the root prune. They were thicker too but hey, Im glad mine roots are fine! At least Ill have two root pruned JBP's.

Thanks!!

On JBP, older roots get dark in color. I think yours is fine, just not growing much. How long ago did you plant it?

S

 

[Paul F.]

On JBP, older roots get dark in color. I think yours is fine, just not growing much. How long ago did you plant it?

S

Months and Months ago... I think I clipped this one in April or May. It was only getting 3 hours of sun a day early in the morning. I just recently threw it out in full sun.

 

[markyscott]

Months and Months ago... I think I clipped this one in April or May. It was only getting 3 hours of sun a day early in the morning. I just recently threw it out in full sun.

That sound like a good move.
S

 

[DirkvanDreven]

Would it be okay to repot and root prune last years (2017) seedling cuttings now, fall 2018? They are still in the seedtray I planted my cuttings in.

 

[markyscott]

Would it be okay to repot and root prune last years (2017) seedling cuttings now, fall 2018? They are still in the seedtray I planted my cuttings in.

According to in "Matsuo, K., Black Pine from Seed, Bonsai Today #20, pp. 39-50", repot one year old seedlings in early spring and root prune them then.

S

 

[DirkvanDreven]

According to in "Matsuo, K., Black Pine from Seed, Bonsai Today #20, pp. 39-50", repot one year old seedlings in early spring and root prune them then.

S

So I'm about six months late.....

 

[markyscott]

OK lot’s of updates. I have 14 seedlings from the April 2015 batch. Some have grown hugely and some have grown significantly less. Unclear what the difference is. All are kept in the same place on the bench and get the same water and fertilization. Perhaps the difference is just genetic variability, perhaps I did a bit more root work on some that set them further back. But there are some that are clearly a year or more ahead of the others and I’m unclear as to why. Jonas Dupuich came to the garden today. Here’s an update of the January 2019 work we did together.

 

[markyscott]

Pine #1 is a strongly growing pine that I set up as a root over rock. Here’s the tree before work:


This pine is one of the really strong ones. Even though it’s January, it’s growing significantly.


Scott

 

[markyscott]

Plan on this one is a semicascade. Not much work today. We thinned the sacrifice branch and plucked some needles to allow light to get to the buds I want to keep. I’m going to let the sacrifice grow a couple of more seasons. I wired the planned cascading branch into place. Everything above the single cascading branch will eventually be removed. That’s it! Done for this year.

 

[Adair M]

I bet you guys had fun!

I’m assuming you drank Jonas’s Shiners for him!

 

[markyscott]

Pine #1 is a strongly growing pine that I set up as a root over rock

Sorry. Pine #1 is an exposed root pine. Not root over rock.

S

 

[markyscott]

Pine #2 is a root over rock. It’s the one I worked on with Danny Coffey in March 2017.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-pine-seedling-cuttings.24555/page-8#post-430100

Here is the pine before work.


S

 

[markyscott]

Pine #2 out of the pot.

 

[markyscott]

Some interesting problems with pine #2, lessons learned and (maybe) a new path forward.

First. The wire cut in significantly below the soil level. Perhaps I should have anticipated this problem, but I didn’t think it would happen after two growing seasons. Second. Lots of new roots issued from the roots attached to the rock which extended laterally away from the stone. Not good. You can see both problems in the following

 

[Adair M]

So, wouldn’t you just trim away the roots growing away from the rock?

What would you have done differently? Check after one year rather than wait for two?

Perhaps wrap with that black Japanese plastic rope rather than padded wire?

Give up and just buy one started by Jonas?

????

 

[markyscott]

So, wouldn’t you just trim away the roots growing away from the rock?

What would you have done differently? Check after one year rather than wait for two?

Perhaps wrap with that black Japanese plastic rope rather than padded wire?

Give up and just buy one started by Jonas?

????

Actually, Jonas has never done a root over rock. So this was a learning experience for both of us. Here’s Pine #2 after we pulled all the wire off.

 

[Adair M]

Actually, Jonas has never done a root over rock. So this was a learning experience for both of us. Here’s Pine #2 after we pulled all the wire off.
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Really!?! Wow! Then I guess you’ll have to consult with a REAL expert: Eric Schroeder!

Looks like you got great results!

 

[markyscott]

We removed outward directed roots that couldn’t be used and rearranged all crossing roots. We talked at some length how we might approach this differently and then pursued a new strategy. Goals are:

1. Direct any new roots that appear downward along the rock
2. Force the existing roots against the rock, but give the room to grow using a material that won’t cut in
3. Use a material that woul persist for perhaps three or more years under the soil while the tree grew
4. Make it easy to water

Here’s what we did (it was good to have extra hands for this). While I held the rearranged roots in place, Jonas packed a thin layer of sphagnum on top of the roots. Then we held the works in place with stretch wrap. We worked our we down the rock until everything was covered. Then we went back over the rock with stretch film and packed it really tight against the rock. Sorry no pictures during the process - all our hands were occupied. In fact, we found ourselves wishing we were borne with one more each. But here is the finished product.


S