Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

[River's Edge]

That’s for exposed root. I have some ROR going too.

Scott

I thought that was the case due to the narrower centre portion. I think the radial stem cutting approach to seedlings gives a distinct advantage for ROR or Exposed Root projects. I prefer to begin those after the second year. The root formation is distinct enough and flexible enough to get a great start on either. And the bigger roots tend to be about the same size as opposed to a tap root dominating the group. By the end of the third year it seems like the roots are a quite a bit more work to sort out.
I like the stage assembly of your setup for exposed root. I think i will start a few next fall after the current crop of JBP finish there second growing season. I have a good supply of larger pumice on hand and would like to try a flex tube split for assembly, reconnected then wired for movement. I wonder what would happen if an engineer got a hold of that idea and drafted a plan?

 

[markyscott]

I thought that was the case due to the narrower centre portion. I think the radial stem cutting approach to seedlings gives a distinct advantage for ROR or Exposed Root projects. I prefer to begin those after the second year. The root formation is distinct enough and flexible enough to get a great start on either. And the bigger roots tend to be about the same size as opposed to a tap root dominating the group. By the end of the third year it seems like the roots are a quite a bit more work to sort out.
I like the stage assembly of your setup for exposed root. I think i will start a few next fall after the current crop of JBP finish there second growing season. I have a good supply of larger pumice on hand and would like to try a flex tube split for assembly, reconnected then wired for movement. I wonder what would happen if an engineer got a hold of that idea and drafted a plan?

Here’s the start on the ROR
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-pine-seedling-cuttings.24555/page-8#post-430100

Here’s the start on the exposed root.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/black-pine-seedling-cuttings.24555/page-5#post-410346

Looking forward to seeing how these guys are doing.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

Here are a couple of the stronger ones. The first is planned to be an exposed root tree:


It’s close to 2’ tall and has ~3/4” trunk diameter at the soil surface.

Here’s another - it’s planned to be a shohin.



It’s close to 23” tall and has nearly 1” trunk diameter at the soil surface.

- S

 

[markyscott]

Very strong growth this year - they all have quite a few fertilizer bags and I’ve been using a dilute liquid fertilizer every time I water.

The leader on this one has extended over a foot and the needles are pretty much hardened of already and it’s only May. I might get another flush this year.



Needles are over 4 1/2” long.

- Scott

 

[River's Edge]

Can you imagine what would be the results if i actually used Poutine and MooseHead on these. The JRP are slender perhaps with Poutine they would have more girth. The new candles on the strongest JRP is over 24 inches. Tape alongside for verification. The first picture is the two strongest JRP. The rest of the pictures show JBP of the same age. These were all seedling cuttings 51 months ago! I expect considerable change in the trunk girth this season. They started the season with trunks in the range of 7/8 " to 1 1/4 ".

 

[markyscott]

Can you imagine what would be the results if i actually used Poutine and MooseHead on these. The JRP are slender perhaps with Poutine they would have more girth. The new candles on the strongest JRP is over 24 inches. Tape alongside for verification. The first picture is the two strongest JRP. The rest of the pictures show JBP of the same age. These were all seedling cuttings 51 months ago! I expect considerable change in the trunk girth this season. They started the season with trunks in the range of 7/8 " to 1 1/4 ".

Nice work, Frank. Perhaps just being near the poutine and Moosehead is enough to get them to grow.

S

 

[RobertB]

Can you imagine what would be the results if i actually used Poutine and MooseHead on these. The JRP are slender perhaps with Poutine they would have more girth. The new candles on the strongest JRP is over 24 inches. Tape alongside for verification. The first picture is the two strongest JRP. The rest of the pictures show JBP of the same age. These were all seedling cuttings 51 months ago! I expect considerable change in the trunk girth this season. They started the season with trunks in the range of 7/8 " to 1 1/4 ".

How is the lower branches looking that you plan on using? Can we see some good pics of these with your plan for when you get some time. Maybe you should create your own progression thread as these look really good and you seam to know a lot and have a good amount of info to share.

 

[markyscott]

How is the lower branches looking that you plan on using? Can we see some good pics of these with your plan for when you get some time. Maybe you should create your own progression thread as these look really good and you seam to know a lot and have a good amount of info to share.

Hi Robert. I’ll try and get some pics. Tree is in California, Scott is in Texas. But I have a man on the inside who might be able to help.

S

 

[River's Edge]

How is the lower branches looking that you plan on using? Can we see some good pics of these with your plan for when you get some time. Maybe you should create your own progression thread as these look really good and you seam to know a lot and have a good amount of info to share.

Thanks for the kind comments. I have over 150 at this stage so the branching varies dependant on the techniques that have been applied to date and the plans for the individual trees. Most have lots of lower branching that was induced by some cutback in year two. lower branching for design will normally not come in to play for another three to four years. The focus now is on girth, then movement and taper depending on the plan for each tree. The JRP will likely be designed as medium to larger trees.
The key at this stage is to obtain trunk size and shape while managing branches to prevent problems and preserve potential lower down as you suggested by your inquiry! I am currently instructing several groups as part of a three year program developing JBP. We began with trees that were developed for four years and transitioned to grow boxes last March. Careful rootwork for development was also done during the transition. They were part of the crop pictured above. The next step will be to determine which branches need to be removed, which foliage should be reduced to protect smaller branches and interior growth, and determine future options for sacrifice and design potential.
If you are interested in the decision making process, i would suggest that you read the JBP development articles posted by Jonas Dupuich on Bonsai Tonight. He has an excellent way of describing and illustrating.

 

[hemmy]

Most have lots of lower branching that was induced by some cutback in year two.

Is that a fall pruning or a mid season candle removal?

 

[River's Edge]

Is that a fall pruning or a mid season candle removal?

I removed selected apical candles in the beginning of June. For most trees this would be the main extension or apex. For some, the apical candles on heavier branching in a top whorl. In my experience the best results come with the removal of the apex. The timing is best in the first four years of growth. My understanding is that the jbp is more likely to have extensive bud back on the trunk during that period.
So based on that, i would plan on using this technique in year two or three. This leaves a window to try again within the four year period.
This does set back growth, while a new sacrifice apex is developed but i prefer to ensure the beginning of lower branching for future sacrifice and design options.

 

[Daniel Camilleri]

A tip from Mark Comstock

https://www.facebook.com/mark.comst...0005951474548/510958199112558/?type=2&theater

Judging from what Mark did there, he's basically repotting his seedlings a couple or 3 times during the first growing season right? once when the seedlign is cut and 1 or 2 more times further on to balance and spread the roots.

 

[markyscott]

Judging from what Mark did there, he's basically repotting his seedlings a couple or 3 times during the first growing season right? once when the seedlign is cut and 1 or 2 more times further on to balance and spread the roots.

I believe that’s correct from what he describes

Scott

 

[markyscott]

If your summer is long enough and your pines are strong enough, JBP can sometimes push a second flush without decandling or pruning all on their own. Mine are into their second push right now. Our growing season begins in March and ends in November.

 

[my nellie]

If your summer is long enough and your pines are strong enough, JBP can sometimes push a second flush without decandling or pruning all on their own. Mine are into their second push right now. Our growing season begins in March and ends in November.

I have been looking into this matter of multiple growth flushes of pines these past days, too.
There are some species which can push up to four or six!
I was under the impression that second push is induced by the decandling... (edit : is only induced by...)

 

[markyscott]

I have been looking into this matter of multiple growth flushes of pines these past days, too.
There are some species which can push up to four or six!
I was under the impression that second push is induced by the decandling...

Decandling does force a second flush, but these have not been decandled. First flush was 6 months ago and there’s still three months of growing season for me. I can get a second flush sometimes when the candles start to extend early enough. Other times the extension just stalls with extended candles.

S

 

[Dalsom]

I have 29 5-year old JBPs grown from seed. A handful of them are pushing out a 3rd flush this year without having been decandled this year!
They were all severely root pruned and up potted to 9” pond baskets with 1:1:1 APL mix. They all received their first hard chop back of their main leaders to start the season too.
All were fertilized with 4 rounds of teabag-filled organic fertilizer. Crazy to see.

 

[my nellie]

Hello,

I have 29 5-year old JBPs grown from seed. A handful of them are pushing out a 3rd flush this year without having been decandled this year!
They were all severely root pruned and up potted to 9” pond baskets with 1:1:1 APL mix. They all received their first hard chop back of their main leaders to start the season too.
All were fertilized with 4 rounds of teabag-filled organic fertilizer. Crazy to see.

This is interesting.
I'm thinking that those few perhaps they are the most vigorous of all 29 trees...
Anyway, I would kindly ask you to post your above experience on this thread about multiple flushes of growth in various species of Pines.
Thank you in advance!

 

[Dalsom]

These JBP are the only pines I’ve ever grown. So I don’t have any other experiences with pines.

 

[Paul F.]

@markyscott i just want to say this thread is awesome and helped me a ton. I just want to share a few things and maybe I had a few question, if thats ok?

long story short - out of 15 root pruned pine I had 2 left.. I pulled this one out to see what it looked like (it was real lose in the pot) and i see black roots. I'm assuming that's not good? It really hasn't grown at all since I root pruned it. I probably watered it too much because I was afraid it would dry out. I put it in some new bonsai soil and placed it in the shade. Hopefully it will make it.



This next part is pretty interesting. I separated 4 seedlings and moved them to 10 hours a day of tropical sun. I didn't water them. All they got was good ole florida rain. The rest were getting 3 to 4 hours and then bright shade. The next two pictures below are the ones getting 3 to 4 hours of sun. Slightly thin, lots of growth - kind of flimsy to the touch some almost laying on their sides.






These next two pics are the 10 hours a day of tropical sun. Trunks are super thick, they dont even budge. They are super firm in the pot but not nearly as much growth if any at all. They just seem like an over all better tree. They are so tough I bet you could wire those two right now! LOL. I just doesn't seem like the root structure (if thats whats holding them tight in that pot) is as good as these full sun trees but they seem to grow better or at least have more growth.

None of these have been root pruned, btw.

I recently gave both sets of trees fish emulsion so maybe that will kick start the tough ones. Who knows. I just find it interesting that the 4 getting all that sun aren't growing up but just getting thicker.



This is the new batch: (straight bonsai mix this time) I root pruned 5 of them today and Ill probably do the rest tomorrow.


Thanks again for this awesome thread!