Black Pine Shohin GIY Project

Paulpash

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Hi,

I'm very much a BP neophyte so any help, however small is appreciated. My goal is to grow my own shohin black pine from raw material I got at a garden centre last year. The tree was pruned to create 2 separate parts - the upper part I might try and air layer once it has done it's job.

Here is the tree planted at an angle in a growing on tray. This is to give the lower trunk some movement and to ensure the top does not shade the lower branch



Here's 3 shots of the small branch I wired that will eventually form the top of the tree:


From above so you can see bud, branches & internode spacing:


Close up where this branch meets the main trunk


Some shots of the base:




If these photos don't suffice or you need different angles please let me know and I will add them in. My main question is how to develop the top over the course of several seasons?
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Brian Van Fleet

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Develop the new top the same way you've been developing the sacrifice leader...let a couple candles on it run long to thicken the next section, and continue to hold back the remaining buds which will form the branches. You're off to a great start.
 

Paulpash

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Ok. So in my first pic I'd allow the top 2 candles in the apex of the shohin section to fully extend and harden off. The rest of the candles in this section should be cut when they are about an inch or so high?
 

Adair M

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Marie, don't cut any candles, yet. Let them grow! Fertilize heavily.

In early summer, decandle the branches you want to use for the design, don't decsndle the sacrifice branches.

Read Eric's thread " a few pine seeds 6 years later". He shows what to do to develop JBP.

Also, read Jonas' blog "Bonsai Tonight". He has lots of articles with pictures on developing JBP.

Frankly, I wouldn't even bother to try to airlayer the top sacrifice. JBP don't layer very well, and it would take two years... Really not worth the bother.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Yes, let at least one candle per branch and one on the leader grow unrestrained for a couple years (green arrows). In the fall, remove the lower needles from those sacrifice branches, and remove multiple buds down to 1 (Orange X).

But, I would candle-cut those branches that will become final branches, in June/July (red lines).
 

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sorce

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Just chiming in with a "nice"!

And a climate note.

These boys know their pines, but early summer and June/July may be midsummer July/August up there!

Don't know how much it matters.

Let me make it "very nice"!

Sorce
 

Paulpash

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Thank you for the replies Brian & Adair. I think Sorce has a valid point about timings and I have another question about this. Is there a visual or 'touch test' you employ to assess whether the candles are ready to be cut? When candle cutting the final branches (red lines) how many pairs of needles should I be leaving on each candle if I want a shohin tree? I'm sorry for the multitude of questions!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I have practiced, learned, and teach that JBP needs 100 days to form new candles, so determine your average first frost date, and count backward 100 days. That's when you decandle, on average. It has very little to do with where they are in their current development, but rather how much time is needed for the second flush to harden off.

When you candle cut, you remove ALL of this year's candle, down to the point where it started to grow this spring; leaving no new needles, only last year's needles.
 

Eric Schrader

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Hi,

I'm very much a BP neophyte so any help, however small is appreciated. My goal is to grow my own shohin black pine from raw material I got at a garden centre last year. The tree was pruned to create 2 separate parts - the upper part I might try and air layer once it has done it's job.

Some shots of the base:

The lower trunk section above could be used to make a shohin, it looks like it has some minimal movement. In general, starting either from seed or a 1- or 2-year old tree will allow you to add movement to the lower trunk that you can no longer easily accomplish on this tree.

I wish there was a simple set of directions that I could provide so that everyone was making nice little bonsai. But the reality is that it's many years worth of work with ongoing needs for redesign and optimization. Each piece of material requires artistic attention to take it to the next level.

I think one of the most important pieces of advise beyond the growing and design instructions that are in other threads here is that you must be willing to make hard choices regarding compacting the tree. Sometimes those choices will mean that you are extending the growing and production time for a particular tree for 4-5 years just to compact the tree a couple extra inches. Bonsai is an exercise in eliminating the unnecessary. Growing shohin pines is also an exercise in compacting trees in every possible way. Vertical trunk sections should be no longer than they absolutely need to be. You can see my article "shohin considerations" on my blog and the bssf site.

Good luck, I'll try to write more soon.

Cheers,

Eric
 

Paulpash

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I have practiced, learned, and teach that JBP needs 100 days to form new candles, so determine your average first frost date, and count backward 100 days. That's when you decandle, on average. It has very little to do with where they are in their current development, but rather how much time is needed for the second flush to harden off.

When you candle cut, you remove ALL of this year's candle, down to the point where it started to grow this spring; leaving no new needles, only last year's needles.

July 7th is now candle cutting day :) Thanks
 

Paulpash

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Well, reading through phutu I've decided to compress this tree further and it now has 2 sacrifice sections, one for the first trunk section and another for the second. If you refer back to the initial pics the new leader is now the first branch of the twisty section. It is now a tad over 4 inches (AA battery for scale) and I can use the existing shoots / buds to create more compact branching. Apologies in advance for the photography... balancing a camera and trying to hold the card backdrop in place was really tricky!

OK first pic - this pic is a little misleading - the trunk does actually bend back before the first left branch. The horizontal right branch denotes the next change of direction of the trunk. I want the shoot next to this to take up the leader. You can see the 3 shoots on the upper branch section. I want to prune out the middle one ( the first will be a back branch, the end shoot is the new leader). Will this weaken this section too much if it gets removed?



Here you can see the shoots a little clearer:


The 2 sacrifice apices can be seen here:


My questions are:

1. Can I safely remove the middle shoot to let in more light / air to my keeper branches without weakening the new leader?
2. Needle pulling and bud removal is next - any advice on these? eg how much should I remove? I know to keep 2 buds max at each point but most of the shoots I'm going to keep have just one that I can see - here's a pic of the top section of the tree from above:



I've never done needle pulling before so knowing how many clusters and where to pull is still a learning experience.

Thanks for looking :)
 

Eric Schrader

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It's not needle pulling time yet really. Looks like you're on the right track in terms of developing a shohin. Have you ever seen this Japanese blog? :

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/16865622.html

It's all about making tiny trees. The post above is one of hundreds. If you use Google Chrome and set it to auto- translate you can follow some of what they're doing. I'd think you could pick up quite a bit it you read carefully and pay attention to season and the techniques they're using.

One of the recent posts dealt with decandling, and they did it behind the nodes to force needle buds. I had suspected that this was a common technique among shohin and mame pine growers in Japan because decandling at the node allows the growth to still become too long.
 

JoeR

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It's not needle pulling time yet really. Looks like you're on the right track in terms of developing a shohin. Have you ever seen this Japanese blog? :

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/16865622.html

It's all about making tiny trees. The post above is one of hundreds. If you use Google Chrome and set it to auto- translate you can follow some of what they're doing. I'd think you could pick up quite a bit it you read carefully and pay attention to season and the techniques they're using.

One of the recent posts dealt with decandling, and they did it behind the nodes to force needle buds. I had suspected that this was a common technique among shohin and mame pine growers in Japan because decandling at the node allows the growth to still become too long.
Well I used google translate and I could get the jist, but it was horrible;

"This is the 39 th of topknot also ferocious black pine, such as the fool lord."

"If you go smoothly, it might soon turn will come."

Is how some of the first lines translated... Very comical.
 

Eric Schrader

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Yeah, it can be funny, but if you can tease out the meaning from the combo of the photos and the terrible translation you can learn from it. They know what they're doing a lot better than we do.
 

fh05

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I found a similar tree in a 3 gal nursery pot. And my plan is to make a shohin too. When and how can it be put in a smaller training pot? I know the time to work on roots is in spring, what I need to know is the timing (ie. work on top now and reduce roots next spring or wait for 2 yrs or wait till the top is close to final height etc.) while working on the top like suggested in the above posts. Any help appreciated please.
 

0soyoung

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I know the time to work on roots is in spring
Actually it is not that clear cut, despite it being customary. Spring, before the buds start pushing to become candles is indeed one time that root work can be done. However it can also be done in late summer or fall - starting like 6 + week before the fall equinox (c.a. 21 Aug onward) IF
  1. daily high temperatures are below 95F, and
  2. all new growth is fully extended and hardened (i.e., standard JBP decandling may significantly delay the time window) - the new foliage fuels root recovery/growth.
I find it more convenient to bend young trunks when repotting. By that time (after mid-Aug. & etc.), the bark won't be as 'fragile' as it is now.
 

Vance Wood

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Though JBP's are not my forte cultivation of Nursery grown Pine trees is. If you consider a Shohin tree as being a bonsai that is no more than 10" tall ( I believer this is the parameter for the styule) and the tree you have selected is in a 3 gallon nursery pot you are not going to be able to cut this tree down this far in one sitting. It will take you several repottings and subsequent root reductions before you can get this tree down that far. Usually a 3 gallon nursery tree is already 24" to 36" tall and as much as 4' in diameter of trunk. Truning a tree like this into a 10" Shohin is a big order and you will have to do this over a period of years. You should have a plan and if it was me I would be utilizing pond baskets and colanders. I may not grow that many JBP's though I have a few, I do know there is no way you can get this tree down this far at one time.
 
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