Black Pine Shohin GIY Project

[Smoke]

Shohin is 8" or less to 4".

A 10" tree is Kifu.

 

[Vance Wood]

Shohin is 8" or less to 4".

A 10" tree is Kifu.

I stand corrected, that's even worse, or in this case more difficult.

 

[Smoke]

It is very difficult to develop tree for shohin from nursery material. Getting it into the appropriate pot is very difficult.

From this....


To this...

 

[Vance Wood]

It is very difficult to develop tree for shohin from nursery material. Getting it into the appropriate pot is very difficult.

From this....
View attachment 78655

To this...
View attachment 78656

You did not mention how long it took to work this tree down to this size and you did not show how large the tree was when you started it. You made a good tree of this however; this tree is a Maple and not a JBP. Just so we all know what I have been responding to here is the original post:

I found a similar tree in a 3 gal nursery pot. And my plan is to make a shohin too. When and how can it be put in a smaller training pot? I know the time to work on roots is in spring, what I need to know is the timing (ie. work on top now and reduce roots next spring or wait for 2 yrs or wait till the top is close to final height etc.) while working on the top like suggested in the above posts. Any help appreciated please. Post #18

fh05, Yesterday at 2:54 PM

 

[Paulpash]

My 2 questions are still not addressed, namely:

1. Can I safely remove the middle shoot to let in more light / air to my keeper branches without weakening the new leader?
2. Needle pulling and bud removal is next - any advice on these? eg how much should I remove? I know to keep 2 buds max at each point but most of the shoots I'm going to keep have just one that I can see - here's a pic of the top section of the tree from above

I know Eric said it's not needle pulling time yet but can I / should I remove that middle shoot now? Should I be only retaining final branches on the trunk (apart from sacrifices)?

 

[Adair M]

Marie, upon revisiting this thread, I think you ought to go ahead and remove the old trunk above you selected new leader. If you continue to let it grow, the change in diameter of the lower trunk and the new leader will become even greater than it already is.

Sure, we want a thick lower trunk, but we also want the taper to be gradual and consistent, not an abrupt change.

So, I think its time to do the chop, then let it grow a new leader for a few years.

 

[Smoke]

My 2 questions are still not addressed, namely:

1. Can I safely remove the middle shoot to let in more light / air to my keeper branches without weakening the new leader?
2. Needle pulling and bud removal is next - any advice on these? eg how much should I remove? I know to keep 2 buds max at each point but most of the shoots I'm going to keep have just one that I can see - here's a pic of the top section of the tree from above

I know Eric said it's not needle pulling time yet but can I / should I remove that middle shoot now? Should I be only retaining final branches on the trunk (apart from sacrifices)?

I will give the advice no one wants to hear, I am just a people pleaser that way. If you have to ask about these two questions, your not experienced enough to do these things to a pine. The blog Eric showed, showed trees in clay pots about 5 inches across, in some cases trunks already 3+ inches across in clay pots 5 inches across. Trees like this can be prepared to go into shohin pots very easily. Trees from a nursery in 14x14 inch baskets do not go into the correct size shohin pots, period. So now you manage to make the chop and not kill the tree, you wait two years to grow out the extension and begin working branches and finally get to a good little tree. It won't fit the appropriate pot and you are left with nothing but to pot it into the wrong pot and it is less that want you wanted.....

That was my point.
Before doing any of this, check the root ball against a real shohin pot and see if the larger roots that are already there can be removed or if the root ball is already far away from the trunk. It could take ten years to get this potted down and in some cases never just do to large roots that can't be removed or stick out keeping it from fitting because they are in the back of the tree where the pot is narrowest.

 

[fh05]

Appreciate all the answers. I hope Marie doesnt mind me asking questions here as this is her thread, I could start another thread i suppose but I am in the exact same position as her so I thought I could join.
So, the first step is to do root work meaning inspection and 1/3 or 1/2 bare rooting to decide if the main roots are small enough. And lets say the goal is shohin or kifu size just not bigger because the trunk just isnt thick enough.

 

[Smoke]

Appreciate all the answers. I hope Marie doesnt mind me asking questions here as this is her thread, I could start another thread i suppose but I am in the exact same position as her so I thought I could join.
So, the first step is to do root work meaning inspection and 1/3 or 1/2 bare rooting to decide if the main roots are small enough. And lets say the goal is shohin or kifu size just not bigger because the trunk just isnt thick enough.

Here is the deal, trees do not fit size parameters due to trunk size, they fit size parameters due to height. So a person could have a shohin tree (5-8 inches tall) with a three inch trunk or a chuin tree (16 to 36 inches tall) with a three inch trunk.

There are two classifications of tree size that are important. Shohin, and everything else!

Shohin is a class of tree that has become very important in the last fifty years. There are many rules to how they are prepared. One of the rules is pot size. While there are no limits in a inches rule, the pot must be proportionate to the tree. So if the pot on a tree with a 3 inch trunk and 8 inches tall has to be abnormaly large to contain the root ball that the pot looks overly large to the tree, then it is not shohin. Period. There is no flexibility.

Now a tree 20 inches tall with a three inch trunk in an overly large pot does not seem so out of place. It is just in a larger pot while the roots are chopped down to fit the correct pot. If the roots do not chop down, then the larger pot is not a large concern. In a shohin, if the tree never fits the correct pot, it is just a small over potted chuin size tree, it is not shohin till it fits in the correct pot. Period.

So, yea it would be a good idea to look at the roots in winter and evaluate the root mass to see whats conceivable to fit into what pot and grow the tree accordingly. Of course if one just wants to grow a small 8 inch tree with a three inch trunk and put it into a larger pot cause thats what it fits in, thats ok too. Just know that it does not fit the true definition of the classification.

 

[Paulpash]

I will give the advice no one wants to hear, I am just a people pleaser that way. If you have to ask about these two questions, your not experienced enough to do these things to a pine. The blog Eric showed, showed trees in clay pots about 5 inches across, in some cases trunks already 3+ inches across in clay pots 5 inches across. Trees like this can be prepared to go into shohin pots very easily. Trees from a nursery in 14x14 inch baskets do not go into the correct size shohin pots, period. So now you manage to make the chop and not kill the tree, you wait two years to grow out the extension and begin working branches and finally get to a good little tree. It won't fit the appropriate pot and you are left with nothing but to pot it into the wrong pot and it is less that want you wanted.....

That was my point.
Before doing any of this, check the root ball against a real shohin pot and see if the larger roots that are already there can be removed or if the root ball is already far away from the trunk. It could take ten years to get this potted down and in some cases never just do to large roots that can't be removed or stick out keeping it from fitting because they are in the back of the tree where the pot is narrowest.

How can I ever "gain experience" without doing these things Al? There are no JBP gurus near me other than online helpers who I respect and listen to. I need to "do" and watch the results and that's how I learn - you, yourself are one of the great 'have a go doers' on this forum and advocate 'doing bonsai' rather than just flapping your lips on the forum. It's like when you're a kid and on every job application it says 'experience required' but you have none. I learn quickly and this tree cost me just 10 pounds.

Why not ask what prep I have done already to set your comment in context? For the record, I have worked the roots, removed the larger ones and got it out of the nursery compost. When I put it into this basket the root mass was about 6 x 6 x 4 inches and all long, rigid roots were removed. I don't think it would have put on that much in a year to make it unworkable - the UK has a much more reduced growing period than California.

I placed it in this basket to grow on, dimensions 11 x 14 x 6. I have pond baskets much smaller and it could easily go into this for growing on when I next repot. I love a challenge and I will succeed. It might not be up to Eric's quality but watch this space

 

[Smoke]

How can I ever "gain experience" without doing these things Al?

Your not "doing", your asking how to "do". If you were doing, you would just do it and learn. By the nature of asking you are not experienced. You can have posts here from Kimura and Suzuki and it will not help you when you cut it. You already know what you want to do, so just cut it and start working it. As far as the roots, I have no idea what you can do with them. If the roots are larger than 4 inches in any direction and deeper than 1 inch it will not fit into a shohin pot.

I do love your spirit though. Confidence is key.

 

[Paulpash]

Your not "doing", your asking how to "do". If you were doing, you would just do it and learn. By the nature of asking you are not experienced. You can have posts here from Kimura and Suzuki and it will not help you when you cut it. You already know what you want to do, so just cut it and start working it. As far as the roots, I have no idea what you can do with them. If the roots are larger than 4 inches in any direction and deeper than 1 inch it will not fit into a shohin pot.

I do love your spirit though. Confidence is key.

If I had 5 JBP I would just "do" but as they are like chicken's teeth round here my scope for experimentation is limited. Like you say though, time to 'man' up and get cutting.

 

[Driftwood]

If I had 5 JBP I would just "do" but as they are like chicken's teeth round here my scope for experimentation is limited. Like you say though, time to 'man' up and get cutting.

Hi, could you please share your experience growing JBP in UK? I bought a nice shohin but I'm already worry about the amount of rain we are getting down here! Have you manage to get small needles? Any suggestions?

 

[Paulpash]

It croaked - our rainy, wet winters and Summers with less than amazing sunlight don't suit it.

I have since grown only Mugo and Scots Pines. Much better for our climate.

 

[Driftwood]

It croaked - our rainy, wet winters and Summers with less than amazing sunlight don't suit it.

I have since grown only Mugo and Scots Pines. Much better for our climate.

Oh Dear! And this second half of the year its looking terrible, maybe even worse up there, for JBP that is . I though about Sylvestris or JRP but couldnt find a good shohin... Did you used a green house, growing lights or any protection? Perhaps you could help us by saying what not to do?
Thank you.

 

[Paulpash]

Oh Dear! And this second half of the year its looking terrible, maybe even worse up there, for JBP that is . I though about Sylvestris or JRP but couldnt find a good shohin... Did you used a green house, growing lights or any protection? Perhaps you could help us by saying what not to do?
Thank you.

No I don't have a green house, that's one of the reasons I decided against getting another and went more with Mugo and Scots Pines - I know they can tolerate UK conditions better - cooler, moist conditions with periodic hard frosts. JBPs love heat and sun with a fairly mild & dry winter.

It's no good battling against a tree's preferred growing environment so I've started a number of sylvestris off from seed and they're doing well. Some will be shohin, others literati and one will be bigger.