Blind Shoots on JBP

[AndyJ]

Hello folks.

I’ve got a JBP that I’ve had growing in a pond basket. I haven’t pruned the top growth for a couple of years and the trunk has grown nicely - maybe about 3ft high now - so as to thicken up the lower part of my trunk. I’ve left the lower branches alone. The top of this trunk is forming candles ready for next year but none of the lower branches have any candles forming, they’re “blind”. These lower branches are, I think, two years old so are covered in two year old needles. Next year, at 3 years old, the tree will drop them and I’m concerned I’ll have nothing to replace them; no candles, no needles.

Have I done something wrong in how I’ve managed this tree? Why are these branches blind? Is there anything I can do to get them to produce candles next spring?

I can’t get a photo of this I’m afraid as it’s placed in the middle of my grow bed.

Thanks folks,

Andy

 

[Shibui]

Sounds like apical dominance has suppressed the growth and development of lower branches. This is how trees grow. Top shoots get all the resources and lower branches get less or none and eventually die so the tree can beat all the other competitors and become king of the forest. Need to suppress the top growth occasionally to keep lower branches healthy and growing.
Shade may also be an issue if it is too densely packed to get a photo.
I'm hoping your lower branches still have small buds (just not developing as large or as quick as the upper ones) that can activate when the top is cut back. Without seeing it is hard to make accurate diagnosis but I would probably prune the top and hope the lower branches can still bud up before the needles drop. Even just cutting the dominant shoots back to last season needles will reduce the auxins that suppress lower growth for long enough to stimulate fresh growth down there.

If lower branches only have 2 year old needles that means they did not grow last spring either or there would be 2 yo and 1 yo needles.

 

[LanceMac10]

3 feet tall? Sounds like a reduction could solve some problems.

 

[Drew]

Sounds like you have shaded out your lower buds too much. As long as you have healthy green needles to cut back too and you can provide full sun, I'd cut them back in late winter early spring. Any needles that the tree is going to drop will be yellowing off around now.

The below is a 8ft tree I cut in early Feb 2019.

Now pics from March 23rd 2019. I probably could have cut back further to the needles I circled in red but as it was the lowest branch and I really didn't want to loose as this is where I will hopefully be growing the second section of trunk from I played it safe and cut back to younger healthier 2nd year needles.


These others are insurance policies

 

[sorce]

can’t get a photo of this I’m afraid as it’s placed in the middle of my grow bed

Pics Anyway!

Sorce

 

[AndyJ]

3 feet tall? Sounds like a reduction could solve some problems.

Thanks for the reply Lance. But the trunk is only about an inch thick - if I’m lucky! If I cutback, I’ve got to wait for a new leader to get an inch thick before the trunk below it will start expanding. Or is this how you grow out JBP’s

 

[AndyJ]

Sounds like apical dominance has suppressed the growth and development of lower branches. This is how trees grow. Top shoots get all the resources and lower branches get less or none and eventually die so the tree can beat all the other competitors and become king of the forest. Need to suppress the top growth occasionally to keep lower branches healthy and growing.
Shade may also be an issue if it is too densely packed to get a photo.
I'm hoping your lower branches still have small buds (just not developing as large or as quick as the upper ones) that can activate when the top is cut back. Without seeing it is hard to make accurate diagnosis but I would probably prune the top and hope the lower branches can still bud up before the needles drop. Even just cutting the dominant shoots back to last season needles will reduce the auxins that suppress lower growth for long enough to stimulate fresh growth down there.

If lower branches only have 2 year old needles that means they did not grow last spring either or there would be 2 yo and 1 yo needles.

Hey Shibui - so do I just cut all the buds on the top in half? Or reduce them? Or wait until the buds have changed into candles and decandle these top shoots next year?

There is a little shade low down - but these shoots do get some sunlight everyday. About two - three hours in summer.

 

[AndyJ]

Sounds like you have shaded out your lower buds too much. As long as you have healthy green needles to cut back too and you can provide full sun, I'd cut them back in late winter early spring. Any needles that the tree is going to drop will be yellowing off around now.

The below is a 8ft tree I cut in early Feb 2019.

Now pics from March 23rd 2019. I probably could have cut back further to the needles I circled in red but as it was the lowest branch and I really didn't want to loose as this is where I will hopefully be growing the second section of trunk from I played it safe and cut back to younger healthier 2nd year needles.

Thanks for the pics Drew. Good growth you’ve got growing there! I think I’ll move the tree into more sun next year and see if this solves the shading issue. Do you think these branches could develop buds over the winter?

 

[LanceMac10]

Young stock? About the only way to control vigor is thru needle removal. Wouldn't reduce something so young. But leaving a JBP to it's own devices for several seasons will cause some problems with long, foliage-less lengths of branches.

 

[AndyJ]

Pics Anyway!

Sorce

Getting in close enough hard Sorce I’m afraid. I’m disabled so access is really difficult - but I’ll give it a go and see what I get.....

 

[AndyJ]

Here’s a couple of pictures - not sure if you can make anything out.

Here’s the top of the tree showing the top buds / candles:



And from another angle:



Here’s the whole tree - you can make out the trunk snaking from top to bottom:


And here’s the shoots in question. It’s from here I was hoping to build the tree from

 

[sorce]

Great Work! That'll help loads!

Top looks super vigorous!

Sorce

 

[LanceMac10]

I would start by taking it out of the bushes first and put it out in the sun. Remove a majority of the needles on your "sacrifice" so as to not shade the bottom where you'll be building up the vigor of weak branching.

 

[Adair M]

All the plants surrounding the pine are shading the lower branches. A couple hours of dappled sunlight will suppress them, and the pine will concentrate all its resources into growing as tall as possible in order to outgrow all the other trees/bushes around it.

Pull it out of the “grow bed” put it where it gets sun 24/7/365!

Then, on the sacrifice, keep the terminal bud intact, and this year’s needles. But remove any other side branches and old needles on the sacrifice. This keeps the sacrifice growing tall strongly, but doesn’t shade out the lower (keeper) branches.

Here’s a picture of JBP grown at Telperion Farms. Those sacrifice trunks are 15 feet tall:



See how there are no weeds stealing the sunlight from the lower branches? See how they remove all the side branches from the sacrifices? THAT’S how it’s done.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks Adair. I think I’ve seen that picture on here somewhere before but I couldn’t find it! Thanks for including it!

Ok, I’ll get one of my sons to move it from it’s current location and get it in to full sun. Might those lower branches still develop buds if it gets more sunlight?

Do you mean to remove these needles in the yellow circle?

 

[LanceMac10]

Yes, remove. Lower branches probably have buds, just small and very weak.

 

[River's Edge]

There is a great set of articles on the Bonsai Tonight website that details the balancing and growth of JBP. Author is Jonas Dupuich. I suggest you look them up to get the whole picture! Each tree requires space, light and continuous development to balance the sacrifice leaders, branches and create lower branching and bud back where desired as growth occurs.
It is not so simple as just managing the apical growth for thickness. When that is done to the exclusion of lower development you get the typical ground grown field pine with few useable lower branches and end up with a lot of grafting required. Here is a pic of a few JBP under development (6 yrsyea

 

[River's Edge]

Yes, remove. Lower branches probably have buds, just small and very weak.

No, retain all needles and branches until stronger growth is evident overall. Why run on four cylinders when you can use eight? Do not remove lower branches until all options are used to create necessary budback and new shoots below that site. Only remove lower branches or needles at this stage if they are creating a problem for future development. Such as inverse taper. Bar branch, shading the preferred shoots or branches.
This tree requires strengthening, moved to a clearer sunny location and re-stablishing prior to resuming development.

 

[LanceMac10]

No, retain all needles and branches until stronger growth is evident overall. Why run on four cylinders when you can use eight? Do not remove lower branches until all options are used to create necessary budback and new shoots below that site. Only remove lower branches or needles at this stage if they are creating a problem for future development. Such as inverse taper. Bar branch, shading the preferred shoots or branches.
This tree requires strengthening, moved to a clearer sunny location and re-stablishing prior to resuming development.

.....so you would keep needles in the area circled with yellow?

I was not suggesting removing any lower growth. Sacrifice seems pretty strong, does it need so many needles?

 

[River's Edge]

All the plants surrounding the pine are shading the lower branches. A couple hours of dappled sunlight will suppress them, and the pine will concentrate all its resources into growing as tall as possible in order to outgrow all the other trees/bushes around it.

Pull it out of the “grow bed” put it where it gets sun 24/7/365!

Then, on the sacrifice, keep the terminal bud intact, and this year’s needles. But remove any other side branches and old needles on the sacrifice. This keeps the sacrifice growing tall strongly, but doesn’t shade out the lower (keeper) branches.

Here’s a picture of JBP grown at Telperion Farms. Those sacrifice trunks are 15 feet tall:

View attachment 263061

See how there are no weeds stealing the sunlight from the lower branches? See how they remove all the side branches from the sacrifices? THAT’S how it’s done.

The concept that Adair has mentioned is correct and this is a great general depiction but the process is more complicated than the picture suggests. One of the difficulties with all the apical growth confined to the upper ends is when it comes time to remove the apical sacrifice. There are extra benefits to being able to do it in stages rather than all at once.
Also one has to realise that this amount of bare extension came after several years of more stages removal of upper needles and side branches. The OP tree is too young to work in this manner right away.
Note how the lower growth is much stronger and fuller at this stage when the apical terminal has all the growth concentrated in such a small area.