Blue Spruce repotting advice, please...

cishepard

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I acquired this spruce and am interested in repotting it this summer. It was growing in a 3 gal. nursery can which was placed in this larger pot and over the years the thick roots have grown down through both pots and out the bottom. I’m thinking that I should try and cut away both pots to expose what is there and then decide how much to cut back and maybe repot into either another large black plastic pot or a deepish grow box. Another possibility is just to cut off at the bottom of the black nursery pot and half bare root from there ...

Or I can just trim off the roots coming out the bottom, so at least it sits flat, and do some shaping, jinning and wiring while it is firmly rooted and repot next year or the year after when it recovers (I don’t need the trunk to aquire more girth).

I’m excited about this tree and want to be careful with it ... how would you proceed? FB0CAD93-57C2-4FA6-B799-06B29DE796EB.jpegFE25622B-F438-4A8A-B49E-171417847632.jpeg
 

River's Edge

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I acquired this spruce and am interested in repotting it this summer. It was growing in a 3 gal. nursery can which was placed in this larger pot and over the years the thick roots have grown down through both pots and out the bottom. I’m thinking that I should try and cut away both pots to expose what is there and then decide how much to cut back and maybe repot into either another large black plastic pot or a deepish grow box. Another possibility is just to cut off at the bottom of the black nursery pot and half bare root from there ...

Or I can just trim off the roots coming out the bottom, so at least it sits flat, and do some shaping, jinning and wiring while it is firmly rooted and repot next year or the year after when it recovers (I don’t need the trunk to aquire more girth).

I’m excited about this tree and want to be careful with it ... how would you proceed? View attachment 308877View attachment 308878
The tree has lots of potential, the unknown is the root ball!
For that reason I would repot in Late February/ Early March. That way if you find that a lot of work is required you will have a full growing season for root recovery! Late summer repotting can work for limited root work but you do not know what you will find underneath in terms of compacted soil and amount of feeder roots!
This is based on the assumption the tree originated in a nursery setting and is not in Bonsai mix. The safe way to proceed would be to repot in stages the first time around. Starting with the weakest side after careful examination. Approximately 1/3 each time until all the original compacted soil is replaced!
After that a routine of 1/2 HBR will maintain it nicely!
On the other hand you may find a nice compact rootball with few thick roots and be able to progress much faster. it depends on what you find in terms of the amount and type of roots as well as the substrate or soil compactness.
I should have mentioned, I always suggest establishing the root ball in proper substrate and ensure recovery before beginning any work! Much faster progress over all and less risk to developed features of design than major repotting after design with less foliage to power recovery!
 

cishepard

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Thank you, Frank. Yes, it was at a nursery here on Vancouver Is. I scraped away some moss and lichens from the soil surface and it is in a fairly loose black potting mix. If I wait until next Spring to repot, do you think I could do some styling this year (including removal of a large branch or two)?
 

River's Edge

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Thank you, Frank. Yes, it was at a nursery here on Vancouver Is. I scraped away some moss and lichens from the soil surface and it is in a fairly loose black potting mix. If I wait until next Spring to repot, do you think I could do some styling this year (including removal of a large branch or two)?
You could. Not my recommendation though! Root recovery is based on foliage. The more healthy foliage the faster the recovery. Removing larger branches usually means the majority of the foliage. Plus if you keep that advantage until you wish more back budding and shoot selection it could really aid the first steps in the design process. Once you play that major card the process moves slower and it takes a while to grow out and repeat the trick if needed.
Spruce typically back bud easily when in good shape!
The picture if it is current shows weak new growth. I would fertilize lightly this summer and fall in preparation for repot in the spring.
 

sorce

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I'd lift it out of the pink pot and see what has grown into it.

If not much, you know your pottable rootmass is within the black pot.

If there is a lot of root in the pink pot, I'd cut it back to the black and wait till next summer.

What's your styling idea?

I fear most everything without blue will want to die off. Which seems a lot!

You can almost see that either the black pot (more likely) or the pink pot isn't getting the right amount of water.

You can read the water difference in the tree.

Once it's healthy, I'd consider a semi cascade.

But finding out which pot holds the good roots makes all the difference on future paths.

Sorce
 

cishepard

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Based on the situation where I found it, I would say that it was completely neglected for at least a decade, meaning only rain for water, and yet it survived to this point. I have only just brought it home today, and so do not have any styling ideas yet. It has 5 living branches and one dead coming off the top of the trunk which I think will offer challenging decisions for the future.image.jpg4C57C95A-4E1E-440E-A0D7-E8A33C90E29C.jpeg
 

River's Edge

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I'd lift it out of the pink pot and see what has grown into it.

If not much, you know your pottable rootmass is within the black pot.

If there is a lot of root in the pink pot, I'd cut it back to the black and wait till next summer.

What's your styling idea?

I fear most everything without blue will want to die off. Which seems a lot!

You can almost see that either the black pot (more likely) or the pink pot isn't getting the right amount of water.

You can read the water difference in the tree.

Once it's healthy, I'd consider a semi cascade.

But finding out which pot holds the good roots makes all the difference on future paths.

Sorce
I assumed that was just dead needles in the bottom of the pink pot. If there is any amount of soil in the pink pot, then cutting away both pots prior to deciding on the repot extent would be a good idea! But I would only do that at the time chosen to repot. I would still keep the timing to next year.

Disagree on the cascade idea for blue spruce, their natural tendency is always upright growth, making that style especially problematic. Actually considered one of the weaknesses in using for bonsai. Some spruce like Ezo are more amenable to a cascade style with a more natural drop to the branches, and or the birds nest variety with much smaller foliage and finer branches.
 

cishepard

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No, the pink pot has soil covering, maybe, the bottom 4“ of the black pot. I suspect there will be both thick roots and fine rootballs in each pot. I could try and just pop the whole thing out of the bottom pot and see ... I already trimmed off the knobs that were sticking out of the holes, so the pot would sit flat without rocking.
 

sorce

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cascade idea

The only reason I would do this, is if "forcing" it into cascade is easier than forcing it into a shallow pot.

In this case it seems so. Especially with someone "interested", which I read as "eager" to Repot it soon, I figure a cascade pot will allow enough roots remaining to keep the tree alive for further pondering, and we won't lose much potential.

Where repotting into a shallow pot may lose all potential with premature death.

Truth truth.. ..this is a "special situation" that should be nurtured to health without Repot.

I like most, the up right up tree with decent taper. But that route has nothing safe to cut back to currently.

Sorce
 

Arcto

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Would agree with Frank. Not certain looking at the photo, but if you can see a hint of the base and major root spread, it wouldn’t hurt too much to carefully scratch away maybe another 1/2” to view the base better. You could then start thinking about style options when you get to that point. I wouldn’t remove any branches until you know that piece of the puzzle. Based on the branch structure and what appears to be a graft line a couple of inches up, this maybe a low spreading cultivar. Anticipate a throughly broken down nursery soil mix when you start any root work on this one. As Frank stated, other than cleaning out dead twigs and needles, I’d leave the top alone until your root work is done and recovered.
 

River's Edge

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The only reason I would do this, is if "forcing" it into cascade is easier than forcing it into a shallow pot.

In this case it seems so. Especially with someone "interested", which I read as "eager" to Repot it soon, I figure a cascade pot will allow enough roots remaining to keep the tree alive for further pondering, and we won't lose much potential.

Where repotting into a shallow pot may lose all potential with premature death.

Truth truth.. ..this is a "special situation" that should be nurtured to health without Repot.

I like most, the up right up tree with decent taper. But that route has nothing safe to cut back to currently.

Sorce
I like your reasoning, taking ones time usually means respecting the tree more so than our desire to do something! But then respecting the tree is doing a very important something;)
I appreciate cascades done well, particularly in some species. Some of my favourite are non traditional as exemplified in multiple cascade styles done by Jim Gremel.
 

cishepard

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A one year update on my blue spruce. I decided to carefully cut both pots away in October of last year, in order to place the whole two story rootball into one large pot for ease of watering and fertilizing. It was difficult, at best. I thought there would be large taproots coming out of the holes of the black pot leading into a second rootball in the pink pot, but there was only loosely connected fine roots, many of which broke off. I was left with a small rootball mostly from the upper pot.
I wish I had taken a photo, but I was feeling in a panic.
I decided to put the tree into a grow box, instead of a pot. In retrospect, maybe I should have chosen a smaller box.
The tree seemed Ok over the winter, and I am relieved to say that this spring it exploded with buds. The ice blue foliage is a joy to behold! I am hopeful!
Nothing but water and fertilizer for the next year.
60C77B40-214E-440C-A5C5-35D0A7A92FE3.jpegF34D89C4-F35A-4728-9D08-3579FEDA105A.jpeg
 

River's Edge

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A one year update on my blue spruce. I decided to carefully cut both pots away in October of last year, in order to place the whole two story rootball into one large pot for ease of watering and fertilizing. It was difficult, at best. I thought there would be large taproots coming out of the holes of the black pot leading into a second rootball in the pink pot, but there was only loosely connected fine roots, many of which broke off. I was left with a small rootball mostly from the upper pot.
I wish I had taken a photo, but I was feeling in a panic.
I decided to put the tree into a grow box, instead of a pot. In retrospect, maybe I should have chosen a smaller box.
The tree seemed Ok over the winter, and I am relieved to say that this spring it exploded with buds. The ice blue foliage is a joy to behold! I am hopeful!
Nothing but water and fertilizer for the next year.
View attachment 380424View attachment 380425
Well done! The extension shows excellent health, next step depends on how much of the original soil remains in the root ball. If you left the original soil in the remaining root ball than I would suggest 1/2 HBR this fall and the remaining !/2 HBR next spring. You could consider a smaller grow box or maintenance pot if the root ball is a suitable size to down size with just a bit of room for new roots.
 

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I agree with River, the tree looks healthy and happy. I wouldn't second guess the choice of box.

However, in the future I would repot this in the spring. A repot this fall followed by one again in the spring seems risky to me.

I would spread it out over two successive springs. This would allow you to see how the tree responds to the first half bare root over that growing season. If the tree sulks or is slow to recover, you can delay the second one until it is stronger
 

cishepard

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Thank you both for your comments and advice. I don’t remember what the rootball looked like (reminder to self - take more photos!!) but I think I can scratch around on the surface and get an idea. I’ll check back in again in Fall with an update on this spruce.
 

Backwardsvg

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Any update on this tree? Looks very nice, I love the trunk!
 

cishepard

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Thanks for asking @Backwardsvg, I’ve been meaning to update this thread.
My tree has been doing well, so over the winter I did some pruning of branches and wiring. I feel like the problematic ‘many branches from one point’ issue is resolving and a nice shape is revealing itself. I will rotate the tree a little at the next repot to what is shown here:

8C2C85F4-C1DB-4FA5-8CDF-7D24188B9FE5.jpeg

I was/am a bit confused about how to trim a spruce - you’re supposed to cut back to a bud, but a lot of the new extensions don’t have any buds along their length like the shoot I’m holding and I cut back shoots last winter the wrong way, like the one behind it, so it did not have any new growth in spring. Not sure what will become of those branches.

229DD354-A50A-46C3-A290-115FBC391AC2.jpeg

Some new shoots look like they have buds at their bases, and I am wondering if I should cut back to those so they will have a better chance to grow, or to NOT cut back yet until I see them extending for sure first. I’m thinking the latter is a safer bet : )

815408A5-44A8-422A-AEF5-D9803BB5B0A8.jpeg
 

0soyoung

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I was/am a bit confused about how to trim a spruce - you’re supposed to cut back to a bud, but a lot of the new extensions don’t have any buds along their length like the shoot I’m holding and I cut back shoots last winter the wrong way, like the one behind it, so it did not have any new growth in spring. Not sure what will become of those branches
They will inevitably die.
A branch that may live on will have at least a bud at its tip.
Some new shoots look like they have buds at their bases, and I am wondering if I should cut back to those so they will have a better chance to grow, or to NOT cut back yet until I see them extending for sure first. I’m thinking the latter is a safer bet : )
Wait for mysterious/ambiguous buds to extend, then you will have something go cut back to. Should it turn out what you thought to be a bud isn't a bud, well, .... --> good logic on your part.


Your tree is coming along nicely :).
 
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